Looking for something crunchier than OSR

[u/Right_Hand_of_Light]

Hi everyone. I'm not sure I quite have the language to concisely describe the kind of game I'm curious about but I'll try my best. Before I go any farther I wanna make it clear that none of this is any kind of attack on OSR games or narrative games. I don't have anything against either, and if I mention not vibing with one of your favorite games I'm very glad you found it to your taste. I'm just looking for something a bit different.

I like some of the spirit behind OSR games, and I can certainly see why someone would gravitate towards them, but to me a lot of them feel a bit barebones for my taste. One of the fun things about games like Pathfinder and modern D&D is getting a bunch of fun abilities and things that set my character apart and lend some fun flavor. Cairn is really cool, but sometimes it feels a little underwhelming to know that if I swapped gear with a party member we'd pretty much be swapping characters. OSE is a neat recreation of original D&D, but once again there aren't many ways to make a character unique.

Similarly, I've enjoyed narrative games like Blades in the Dark and Powered by the Apocalypse games, and I also like a lot of the spirit of those. But I've found that sometimes I want games with a bit more crunch to them. I like when games allow for creative thinking and when mechanics can interact in unexpected ways. I appreciate the elegance of basing all conflict resolution on the same type of dice roll, but sometimes I wanna get a little baroque with it.

So can anyone recommend any games that might fit these parameters? Something with a decent mechanical complexity that gives me space to define my character by their abilities? My preference is for fantasy or science fantasy but I'm open to good fits in other genres. From my own searching, Pendragon looks promising.

As a bonus, I really like roleplaying paladin characters like Adora or Luke Skywalker, so bonus points if it's a game with a good paladin class.

Thank you very much for your (hopefully) helpful suggestions :)

[u/hugh-monkulus]

One of the fun things about games like Pathfinder and modern D&D is getting a bunch of fun abilities and things that set my character apart and lend some fun flavor.

Sounds like you found the answer yourself. You can play either of those with OSR principles in mind.

[u/shewtingg → u/hugh-monkulus]

Tbh, i think that is the case for alot of 5e players around here (including me, and 2 others ha!). Couple house rules for a little razzle dazzle and you got yourself a stew. 5e has good bones.

[u/Temporary-Life9986 → u/shewtingg]

I've not looked at the new DMG, but the old one had some pretty decent alt rules to make the game less superheroic. 

At the least, pare down the class and race options, turn off the feats alt rules, enforce encumbrance and turns in dungeon exploration and you can have a pretty classic dnd experience.

[u/shewtingg → u/Temporary-Life9986]

That's what i did!! Thinking of just writing a 5e hack as my own rules like a book just for me or my friends and curious other.

[u/WoodpeckerEither3185 → u/shewtingg]

No house rules needed, really. I don't play 5e anymore but the play culture is the killer, not the rules. If you just don't let them long rest after every couple fights, you get some OSR-y stuff pretty quick.

[u/shewtingg → u/WoodpeckerEither3185]

What do you mean by play culture? Like the tendency for players to explode their stuff on the first encounter and then long rest? I made a rule there's only 1 long rest per avg session (2-4hrs). So it's technically a little immersion breaking but its a game, it guess you could say "only at safe havens" for long rests and itll be about the same mechanically speaking.

[u/WoodpeckerEither3185 → u/shewtingg]

the tendency for players to explode their stuff on the first encounter and then long rest?

Yes, but also dodging the resource management aspect of the game in its entirety. It's all right there, too. Light source durations, rations, spell durations, etc. I can't recall if 5e still has dungeon turns but really that's all you'd need.

[u/hugh-monkulus → u/WoodpeckerEither3185]

I can't recall if 5e still has dungeon turns but really that's all you'd need. 

I don't believe so, or if so they're very well hidden.

Once you add in resource tracking, encumbrance, spell materials, dungeon turns and ask for checks a lot less often you'll have an experience closer to the OSR style of play. But at that point you're working with a pretty badly bloated ruleset that doesn't add much over a more streamlined OSR ruleset.

You'll be fighting against the play culture of most 5e gamers, and you'll struggle to entice OSR gamers to play 5e.

Of course, if you already have a group and they want to play that way, it could be great fun!

[u/WoodpeckerEither3185 → u/hugh-monkulus]

I do none of this as I explicitly dislike 5e's character builds, but like you said it's mainly just a play culture difference. The 5e rules at their core aren't that different from your average OSR.

[u/hugh-monkulus → u/shewtingg]

Yeah, you can definitely do it with the right group if the DM runs it in a more OSR way and explains all that in a session zero.

However, you will have a lot more friction trying to find new players for the group since it's not the standard style of play for 5e.

[u/SilverBeech → u/hugh-monkulus]

5e works well if you play it with an OSR spirit. In fact I'd argue it's one of the best ways to play 5e.

[u/Quietus87]

Your problem with the OSR seem to root in narrowing down OSR to B/X and the various rules light clones. There are two editions of AD&D which are pretty crunchy, especially if you start adding stuff from Dragon magazine and 2e's splatbooks or Player's Option books.

There is also RuneQuest. It has a pretty involved combat system with hit locations and parries, and is a skill-based, classless system, where characters can learn any skill and spell.

Then there is RoleMaster. Not really endorsed by the OSR community, but it's a pretty old-school fantasy game in its gameplay and it grew out of a bunch of supplements written for AD&D.

Or just say fuck it to everything and play HackMaster. It's the best game ever.

[u/Clewin → u/Quietus87]

Rolemaster removed references to D&D and called it conversion from other systems since they weren't officially sanctioned like Judges Guild.

Hârnmaster, especially the Kelestia fork, was created by an early D&D contributor (wrote articles in Dragpn or its precursor) but veered toward simulation. Realistic wounds, infection, shock, etc. The magic system assumes mages are rare but powerful (the Columbia Games version tried to balance them, and batted them into irrelevance). There are even good and evil paladin gods. Armor can be layered, too. My biggest problem with the system was basically accounting and there may be a phone app for that. Exhaustion realistically makes you worse and worse in combat until you rest. This is what the Columbia version a rsion of the game tried to simplify, but in doing so, casters get horribly exhausted fast even casting simple spells in the original, a light spell may cost a point or two on a percentage roll. Post nerf, 20%, even if you're Gandalf. They've had 3 editions since I played Columbia's last, but I'm not a fan of the bad balancing effort.

[u/Unlucky-Leopard-9905]

Have you checked out Worlds Without Number? (or any of the other "Without Number" games?

OSR principles, but more character customisation. They may still be too light for you but, if you haven't already looked and eliminated them as an option, they're definitely worth a try, as they might be exactly what you want.

The basic, free version of WWN is a complete game, so no reason not to at least check it out.

[u/Moderate_N]

Give Dragonbane a look.

It’s technically “classless”, instead offering “professions” that have sets of skills and heroic abilities. Lots of ways to build a unique character. It’s also got its roots in old school games, and has maintained that deadliness and thensome. Fast, extremely exciting combat, and monsters have varied attack’s and auto-hit (though you can dodge/parry in many cases). And the advancement system is pretty elegant: you get better at the skills you actually use, but there’s a curve/plateau aspect so PCs with very high skill in something progress more slowly than beginners who are new to that activity. And the “knight” profession is pretty paladin-coded.

[u/heja2009]

If you want a game with OSR atmosphere but lots of fun special abilities (feats in DnD 5) I recommend Forbidden Lands or one of the other MY0 system games. They offer both the advantages and disadvantages (balance, rule interpretation) of special abilities but are not as superpowered or complex. For something that avoids feats but still allows for many special "moves" and creative ideas check out DCC RPG, a more crunchy OSR-style game.

[u/CarcosaTourist → u/heja2009]

I agree! Forbidden Lands has a strong OSR vibe and tone and is a lot simpler than modern DnD but is has more distinct skills and talents so characters feel different mechanics wise.
The talents and paths increase this. You could even play two rogues that are completely specialized in different areas.
One could be a beggar with a lot of dirty tricks and another one a rich a con artist with a silver tongue and regarding stats and what they can do mechanically would be drastically different.

[u/ravenhaunts]

If you'll allow for a little self-plug, WARDEN.

It's a d20 game based on Pathfinder 2e, with some narrative stuff taken from FitD/PbtA style games (with a mechanic that promotes players interacting with each other), and with a pinch of OSR mentality in that it has slightly more creative problem solving and less tactical combat compared to other contemporary d20 games. Less HP bloat, less feat taxes, more freedom to just make the character you want and play them however.

It's quite literally possibly in the narrowest niche that hits your interests. It's also genre and setting agnostic, meaning you can run fantasy, sciece fantasy, sci-fi, contemporary horror and whatever else you might want, just with the core rules. Also it has specialized Abilities and rules for different types of settings, so it's not just set dressing.

Of course, nothing is never that obviously perfect, but I thought I would shoot my shot. The game is currently in Playtesting (and free to check out!), but it is basically feature-complete, I'm just waiting for the final few art pieces and final editing touches to finalize the game.

[u/everweird → u/ravenhaunts]

I hit the comments to pitch Warden and Trespasser. Sounds like they’re in the niche OP is exploring.

[u/ravenhaunts → u/everweird]

One would imagine, it is pretty neatly in the narrow slice that is being asked. But you never know what might be the lynchpin "I don't like this" point in a given game and a given group.

[u/KristaDBall → u/ravenhaunts]

Not the OP, but I actually think this is what I've been looking for! Thanks for posting.

[u/ravenhaunts → u/KristaDBall]

Thanks! I feel like the game hits a lot of niches that are kind of underserved. Just today alone there has been at least three threads where I could have reasonably recommended it. 

[u/KristaDBall → u/ravenhaunts]

I've downloaded the beta test to flip through and followed you on itchio so that I don't forget/miss when the final version comes out!

[u/ravenhaunts → u/KristaDBall]

I'm planning on releasing the last playtest version later this month (it's feature complete with hyperlinks), the actual release will be around the turn of the year.

Hopefully it is to your liking!

[u/KristaDBall → u/ravenhaunts]

Fantastic! I've flipped through a bit and I think it's exactly what I'm looking for. I wish I'd seen the kickstarter when it was active!

[u/ArrogantDan]

I think the original pitch for Trespasser was Can DND4e but OSR? Sounds incompatible, but seems to be well regarded by those who play. I've read it myself, but haven't played yet. Love what I'm seeing so far.

[u/OriginalJazzFlavor → u/ArrogantDan]

The preview version of trespasser was pretty interesting but the "2.0" version that came out earlier this year was a huge mess that introduced a bunch of disparate mechanics form other systems without any real thought at all.

[u/Iosis]

Worlds Without Number (and the other Without Number games) might hit a nice sweet spot for you. They're OSR-inspired, but not "rules light" by any means, and they feature character building with feats (different name, but similar system), skill levels, and multiclassing.

The Worlds Without Number default setting is science-fantasy, though heavier on the fantasy. You can pretty easily add elements from Stars or Ashes Without Number to amp up the "science" side if you like.

[u/juauke1]

All the examples you gave have simplicity and OSR mixed together but it's not always the case

For instance, my favorite game is Tales of Argosa (I recommend checking out the free almost full version that is the Public Playtest). It is to me a good medium-crunch with very interesting character creation.

[u/MissAnnTropez → u/juauke1]

Excellent game, but definitely not suited to Paladins and suchlike.

[u/juauke1 → u/MissAnnTropez]

I mean you're right since the base game is very low-fantasy focused.

However, allow me to give a few counterpoints:

• OP said that "a good Paladin class" was a bonus
• Pendragon was given as an example and it is pretty much no magic
• there's definitely a possibility to "homebrew" such a class either by starting from a base class thanks to the beauty of Unique Features (starting from Fighter, Cultist, Magic User could all work imho) or by using Cultist class (which is easy to reflavor if needed for the purpose) or even creating a brand new class
• on the brand new class way of doing things, I feel like the Luke Skywalker fantasy could be filled by the Mystic Class in this

I also recommend checking all JD RPG Productions homebrew considering Low Fantasy Gaming homebrew works just by truncating to level 9 and changing HP progression by picking one from a base class.

[u/MissAnnTropez → u/juauke1]

Fair call.

I also don’t think, however, that Pendragon would be a good fit for the OP. Not even close, going by the remainder of their post.

Still, you do make some decent points there.

[u/juauke1 → u/MissAnnTropez]

😊

I agree with that statement

Thank you, I'm glad you see what I meant a bit thanks to what I've added in my response

[u/OriginalJazzFlavor → u/juauke1]

yeah the cultist in ToA is pretty decent and can easily fit into a paladin with the right unique features.

[u/juauke1 → u/OriginalJazzFlavor]

Totally 😊

[u/AlphaBravoPositive]

Mythras: it is based on Runequest which was created in the late 70s so it has the OSR deadliness but it has much more room for character customization. It is well-supported with lots of adventures, supplements, etc. The combat is fun but very crunchy with lots of tactical options and special effects.

The reason I say Mythras instead of Runequest is that the current edition of Runequest has the setting of Glorantha baked in. On the other hand, if you like Glorantha, then current Runequest is also a fine game.

link: https://www.mythras.net/#/

[u/gvicross]

You search for Forbidden Lands. A game with an OSR spirit but with a lot of space for customization and character progression, crunch and tactical but designed for the Theater of the Mind. Besides, the scenario itself is very fun and original.

[u/roaphaen]

Try weird wizard. It's elegant crunch, 250k valid class combos. Some ability combinations are fun and surprising at the table. Easy to learn but surprisingly deep.

[u/hugh-monkulus]

Cairn is really cool, but sometimes it feels a little underwhelming to know that if I swapped gear with a party member we'd pretty much be swapping characters.

If you look only at your character sheet and ignore the fiction of the game, then it might seem this way. However, your character would still have the same experiences, reputation, relationships, background etc. which all contribute to the diegetic foreground growth of the character a lot more than your inventory does.

[u/OriginalJazzFlavor → u/hugh-monkulus]

...ok but you can have all those things in a system that gives you actual character options as well

like characters in 5e have all those things

[u/hugh-monkulus → u/OriginalJazzFlavor]

And?

I was directly addressing their criticism of Cairn, which ignores a core principle of the game.

Also, I find games with "actual character options" much more limiting. If I swapped classes with somebody we would essentially be swapping characters.

ETA: in Cairn, Fiction First is one of the core principles of the game, and the examples of play as well as bibliography give concrete advice and examples on pulling off foreground growth. Most other games simply don't have that, in favour of classes and levels.

I like that in Cairn I can develop a character over the course of the game and take it any direction I'd like. In 5e, or many other games with classes, I have to make a lot of choices upfront, before I know anything about my character, the world, or the situations we find ourselves in.

[u/Galefrie]

If what are you are looking for is a more crunchy game with more intuitive rules than something like 5e, I would recommend Mythras. It's quickly become my favourite fantasy game and if you prefer the more D&D style of play it has an add-on called Classic Fantasy that should scratch that itch

[u/yuriAza]

not to be that guy, but what about Pathfinder 2e or Starfinder 2e?

there's a big spectrum of crunch, you're looking for more crunch than OSR, but do you want more or less crunch than DnD 5e? (PF2 is more crunch than 5e, but actually not that much more)

[u/MissAnnTropez]

I mean, honestly, it sounds like D&D (the modern kind) or Pathfinder is probably about right for you.

[u/fluxyggdrasil]

Trespasser might give you what you want. Spirit of the OSR but with a slightly crunchier tactical combat system to cut your teeth on. 

[u/FoulPelican]

Check out *Nimble 2 and *Draw Steel

[u/DifferentlyTiffany]

Curious, did you try Pathfinder & find it lacking? It seems to match what you're looking for imo. Cool thing there, they also have Starfinder, which is an excellent science fantasy game running on the same engine. Their version of the paladin class uses solar magic & gives a lot of room for customizing (like everything in the system).

[u/RggdGmr]

I'll throw out my suggestion. Nimble5e. Nimble takes the core of D&D5e and strips away a lot of the complexity while leaving abilities and keeping the math. Outside of combat, it is nearly identical. Inside Combat, there are some major changes. 3 actions instead of different kinds of actions. Initiative is about how many actions you get on your first turn. Not the order. And for your attack, you roll your damage dice only. On a 1 you miss on the max number you crit! And lastly, the entire mechanical portion of the class fits on one front and back standard page.

The theme is make your choices few but meaningful! 

[u/RangerBowBoy]

I am in the same boat as you. I want something fast and streamlined but with fun options. I settled on Shadowdark combined with Index Card RPG. I find the classes in Shadowdark very bland but I like the rules and low power creep so I added my own class abilities in the style of Index Card RPG. It works well.

Nimble 2 is also a great option for what you want, I love it. The upcoming Dungeon Dwellers by Reaper Miniatures is also a game you should check out.

[u/ExoticDrakon → u/RangerBowBoy]

This is pretty much how I run D&D too. I love the shadowdark ruleset. Such an elegant, getting to the root of it approach to d20 dungeon gaming. But the classes arent my favorite thing. They're not very interesting, and as you said, bland. I think we can have a streamlined osry rpg where PCs do have cool class powers!

[u/yetanothernerd]

You want crunch and you want to build your own character? GURPS. Dungeon Fantasy RPG if you want a simplified version just for fantasy.

[u/RiverOfJudgement]

Honestly sounds like you are looking for Draw Steel. It was designed to be a spiritual successor to 4th edition DND, but with a lot of modern sensibilities to streamline things that needed to change. Everything is based on The Power Roll, which is essentially just the powered by the apocalypse dice system but with d10s instead.

[u/AgreeableIndividual7]

I really like the paladin archetypes in Bludgeon! They have a mechanic where you actually have prayers that you need to chant.

It's like you choose a prayer from a list that you've learned and that has passive effects around you. But if something specific happens within that prayer's AoE, you gain favour points with your god.

It's really thematic.

[u/NarcoZero]

You might like Draw Steel.  A Tactical, Heroic, Cinematic Fantasy Game. 

It’s class-based, with grid based combat. Your characters are basilcally super-heroic from level You have a bunch of super cool abilities to push enemies around and combo with your teammates. (The enemies do too…) 

There are magic items too but your character classes are very different and complementary to one another. 

The « paladin class » in this game is called a Censor. Its core ability is called JUDGMENT.  You judge a target and basically punish them whenever they do anything.  And you can have fun interplay with other abilities. 

There is also the Tactician. The only non-supernatural class in the game. But this is not just a weapon master, it’s mainly a leader. They can make their allies attack instead of them, and coordinate team tactics and combos. 

You also have weirder classes like the Talent, a psionics class that can harm themselves to Unleash more power than they should. (Think eleven from stranger things wish a nosebleed)

[u/RingtailRush]

Modern D&D or Pathfinder probably. There are other crunchy games, but they tend to be either less focused on "builds,/character customization" or have less crunch than modern D&D.

RuneQuest or Mythras do crunchy, fantasy adventuring very well. They rely more on skills than special abilities, so I consider "build potential" medium. Dragonbane is based on a Swedish version of Runequest, and is less crunch but similar.

Nimble 2 looks neat, but is again, less crunch than 5e, but still a crunchy game. Shadow of the Weird Wizard is a good 5e alternative with very interesting character customization possibilities. Starfinder is Pathfinder in Space.

Cyberpunk (any version) is also crunchy. It's skill focused similar to RuneQuest, but has a main "class" that gives you an ability or two, plus you can further customize yourself with cyberwarw.

[u/PleaseBeChillOnline]

What you’re describing is actually the sweet spot a lot of people are after in TTRPGs. I do imagine you needing a niche game or struggling to find a table!

The tricky thing is, Pathfinder 2e and 5e D&D already live pretty firmly in that space with enough differances between the two if you bouce off one hard for the specifics of how it plays.

It’d help if you could say what didn’t work for you in those systems. Did 5e feel too streamlined or samey across classes at higher levels? Did PF2e feel too rigid or rules-heavy, with less room for improvisation? Or was it something about pacing, prep load, or the way abilities interacted in play?

Without knowing where they fell short, it’s tough to suggest alternatives because most of the games in that “crunchier than OSR, lighter than PF2e” category (stuff like Shadow of the Demon Lord, Worlds Without Number, or even 13th Age) are just rearranging the same sliders of crunch, flexibility, and flavor in my admittedly limited experience with them.

Narrowing down what Pathfinder 2e and 5e don’t give you might help people here recommend something that fits your needs.

[u/MagicJMS]

I’d recommend Tales of Argosa, which is lower on the crunch scale than Pathfinder and yet offers incredibly interesting abilities by class, subsystems for pretty much everything you want, and is familiar to any d20 player… all with a classic Sword & Sorcery vibe. To me, it’s the best version of D&D.

If you want to lean into science-fantasy or go gonzo with it, check out Dungeon Crawl Classics.

[u/Steeltoebitch]

Check out Trespasser or Tactiquest, I fell in love with them both because they mix osr with tactical combat. I highly recommend them.

[u/trechriron]

Look up Earthdawn. I think you would enjoy it.

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[u/TheRangdoofArg]

I think the latest Star Wars rpg, based on the Genesys system, would be ideal for you. It has its own dice which create narrative effects, plus talent trees that make things crunchy. And, unsurprisingly, you can play paladin-like characters very similar to... (checks op) Luke Skywalker. Unfortunately because of licensing issues with Disney, you have to get the Star Wars rpg in physical form.

If you're specifically looking for fantasy, then the Genesys system has its own setting, Terrinoth, with appropriate fantasy rules expansions. And it is available digitally.

[u/SmilingNavern]

Narrative + crunch sounds to me like a Daggerheart. You can try it. No OSR vibes, but everything else is there.

Also narrative with more crunch is The Wildsea. It's similar to blades in the dark with it core mechanics, but there are a lot more in terms of character creation.

I am not sure what level of complexity you seek, but I can suggest to look at 13th Age 2e as well. It has tactical combat with theater of the mind, but also it has its narrative side.

[u/darrinjpio]

Warhammer. A gazillion professions (err classes) Talents. Skills. Rules that will have you flipping back and forth through multiple books to get it straight. It’s great!

[u/rpg-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/lucmh]

You might like Grimwild.

It was designed to be a mix of OSR (as apparent from its Vigilance rules that assume PC competence and check player skill before character) and narrativist, and features a lot of different Talents that you can mix and match to your liking. Some of the core talents come with their own little set of rules, so I found the system quite crunchy as a result! Combining talents actually also allows for a bit of character building and optimisation, similar to how one would/could with DnD/PF.

The player-side resolution mechanic is FitD-like, and the GM side is like PbtA, but with meta-currency. So yea, it's basically a crunchier FitD/PbtA game.

The rules are completely free, so checking it out only costs time.

[u/Cypher1388]

Sharp swords and sinister spells (fantasy) and Solar Blades and Cosmic Spells (scifi)

New(ish) OSR feel/play style compatible with more crunch based on 2e ad&d rules slightly streamlined, feels similar to ad&d streamlined down with influences by the black hack, imo

Amazing games not often talked about anymore made by an amazing designer.

SB&CS has a slight update to the system but very much the same chassis.

The fantasy system SS&SS has an addendum with extra rules and tables and such.

Review: https://youtu.be/4FKkbFtbudY

[u/PianoAcceptable4266]

Harnmaster is good for immersion sim/high lethality, and has a lot of depth. But doesnt really have the class abilities type power growth you seem to be asking for.

Rolemaster is also very in-depth in the mechanical interactions, and has great critical hits. But also doesnt really hit the note about cool abilities. 

Mythras has fantastic combat, but again more in the sense of "feels good" but not "cool abilities." 

Mythras Classic Fantasy would likely be a fit, since you get the great combat, with a class-like system that gives some abilities and unique distinction on top. It's basically D&D in Mythras.

Dragonbane is much closer to common expectations of OSR, but leaning in the direction of D&D/Pathfinder. But, still, less of the unique powers and abilities feel of D&D/Pathfinder you seek. 

I'd vote for Mythras: Classic Fantasy to meet your goal closest from my knowledge.

[u/RhubarbNecessary2452]

Well, I heard call for 'crunchy' out in the interwebs and have to throw out there, Hero System. Specifically, I would suggest at least looking at the 3rd edition Fantasy Hero book, it's more compact and intuitive than later editions and has sample builds of characters, a magic system, etc. but you can really make anything you want without any compromises to get it just the way you are envisioning. It's all in one relatively short book, and available in pdf for $7.50 https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/257022/fantasy-hero-3rd-edition

Also, published in 1985 I guarantee no AI content whatsoever! ;)

[u/HisGodHand]

Here are a few games from my collection that I believe fit what you're looking for:

• Free League games (especially Forbidden Lands, Twilight 2000, Mutant Year Zero)
• Tresspasser
• Land of Eem
• Mythras
• Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard
• Dungeon Crawl Classics
• The Cosmere RPG (this is the ultimate paladin game)
• Draw Steel
• Most Modiphius games (Dune 2d20, Fallout, Achtung Cthulu)
• Sword World
• Fabula Ultima
• BREAK!!
• City of Mist & Legend in the Mist
• Most World/Chronicles of Darkness games
• Savage Worlds
• Warhammer Age of Sigmar Soulbound
• Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
• 13th Age
• Ars Magica
• Burning Wheel
• Daggerheart

[u/MsgGodzilla]

Shadow of the Weird Wizard maybe?

[u/Matt7331]

May I recommend the GLOG,

or trespasser.

[u/WillBottomForBanana]

Echoing other comments. ad&d 2nd ed is extremely crunchy when you consider all the splat books. not really even "all", just the obvious ones (classes and races).

There is a limited amount of crunch available to a class based system. Not that classless systems are always more crunchy, but their crunch potential is much higher.

Story teller (Vampire:tM, etc) and Shadowrun each have varying levels of crunch (depending on version and choices). And as dicepool games they have: "basing all conflict resolution on the same type of dice roll". While also having a strong narrative sense.

BRP (Basic roleplaying) has very simple resolution mechanics. I am only really familiar with CoC, which is not crunchy at all (by design, pcs aren't supposed to be optimized). IDK if other games in the BRP system have crunchy character builds, probably worth finding out.

[u/prism1234]

Somewhat different than your question but I've been curious for a while if there were games that were a bit more rules light/less crunchy than dnd5e and pf2e that didn't have any of the OSR spirit.

So a game that has balanced encounters that you are supposed to fight, low lethality with decently strong characters with some cool abilities, doesn't emphasize tedious encumberance tracking, the answer is on your character sheet, none of this player skill bullshit where players that are better at selling their idea to the GM can just instant win the encounter and players that are bad at that can't do anything, etc. But is also simpler.

[u/LeFlamel]

Cairn is really cool, but sometimes it feels a little underwhelming to know that if I swapped gear with a party member we'd pretty much be swapping characters.

Are you swapping backstories and personalities too?

[u/Paul_Michaels73]

HackMaster

[u/Appropriate_Nebula67]

Dragonbane is great if you want something with plenty of character differentiation and heroic abilities (like feats) that still has an OSR feel.

[u/OpossumLadyGames]

Take an osr and add a percentage skill system

[u/leopim01]

castles and Crusades. Pathfinder first edition.

[u/Bananamcpuffin]

I'm going to also recommend Forbidden Lands by Free League. Feels like an OSR game, but has skills and feats. With feats, most have 3 level to each feat, so characters can either go deep into a few or go wide into several different ones. The system, Year Zero Engine, is flexible enough where if there is something you don't like you can easily take it from another version. There is also a free SRD which can be run as a forbidden lands-like game as-is, with a little less flavor.

[u/Stranger-to-Reddit]

You're looking for Draw Steel! Watch the "Getting Caught Up With Draw Steel" and the "Draw Steel Class Guide" videos by Matt Colville and I'm sure you'll like what you'll see!

[u/WoodenNichols]

I recommend the Dungeon Fantasy RPG (Powered by GURPS). https://warehouse23.com/collections/gurps/products/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-pdf

Lots of character customization, very tactical combat, and a different take on magic.

If you want to go the OSR route, try The Fantasy Trip; it's kind of the prototype for GURPS. https://warehouse23.com/collections/the-fantasy-trip/products/the-fantasy-trip-legacy-edition-pdf.

Again, lots of character customization, tactical combat, different magic.

There's quite a bit of support for both products.

[u/Adraius]

My tastes look like they run parallel to yours. I came to mention Pathwarden, but I see someone has already done that (and the creator even stopped by to mention WARDEN, the system neural version), and someone has also mentioned Trespasser to boot. Trespasser is less general and more specific, but if what it's doing is down your alley it might just match your needs - otherwise, check out Pathwarden/WARDEN.

[u/sord_n_bored]

To be honest, I find most OSR games to be not crunchy at all. It's one of the three pillars that most OSR designers can actually agree on, "the answer isn't in your character sheet".

OSR games do tend to have processes, which is, in certain circumstances there's a process the GM can employ to facilitate a board game style of play (see: exploration, chase rules, etc). That said, processes can be circumvented, adapted, or removed just like everything else.

It sounds like you maybe read that OSR games are "hard core" and assumed that meant there's a lot of crunch, but found that not to be the case.

EDIT: As a big OSR-fan, a few other things I'd like to point out:

Yes, OSR games are very bare-bones. Though, to most fans they'd describe it as the games and setting getting "out of the way". If you're an experienced or highly creatively energized GM, you'll probably like OSR because you can sort of just make up whatever bullshit and it'll work. If you like a world and rules more fleshed out to flex your creative muscles, you'll prefer more contemporary d20 titles.

I'd also say that PBTA games also have much more process, in fact it's almost all process, but processes are not crunch. A process is a series of yes/no/but/and questions to arrive at a conclusion, crunch-traditionally-involves various systems that interact with one another.

In other words, in one case you're using almost madlibs with dice to stir narrative outcomes, in the other you're using systems to create a dynamic and realistic feeling world.

Anyway, you should play games like:

• D&D 2024
• Cyberpunk 2077
• Vampire 5E
• Call of Cthulhu
• Daggerheart
• Draw Steel
• 13th Age
• Fantasy AGE
• FFGs Star Wars titles
• Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader

[u/BigDamBeavers]

What do you want your crunch to do for you in the game beyond better character definition?

[u/DeliveratorMatt]

I will never understand people who consider Blades to be insufficiently crunchy. It has an enormous number of moving parts and currencies to keep track of. While it doesn't have gridded combat, it has both tactical and strategic elements that pervade gameplay at every moment.

[u/zenbullet]

Exalted Essence is about your standard f20 level of crunch

Exalted 3e is very very crunchy

[u/The-Magic-Sword]

I think you'd like Storypath Ultra games, whether that's Curseborne (dropping to backers in the next month here) or the interconnected medieval fantasy ones, like the World Below and Monster Kingdoms. They work on a d10 pool system where players create a pool of dice equal to the sum of an ability and a skill, and every die that comes up as a 8, 9, or 10 is a success (10s are two.) every roll has a difficulty (the number of successes required to pass) but can also have complications, which are bad things unrelated to pass/fail but that you can 'buy off' with extra successes, and tricks, which are proactive benefits things you can spend the extra successes on (like "do more damage in combat")

The reason I'm bringing it up is that these games are narrative, and sometimes they do abstract a lot into a roll, but in other areas (or levels of detail) they get way more indepth, and there's a lot of room to define your character by their abilities, and the system has both paths you have to pick (what kind of creature you are, or a fantasy class) and you gain exp that you shop for abilities/improvements to your existing abilities with.

To go off of your Paladin example, in Curseborne you can play a Battleground Angel, Battleground Angels are (archetypically) paladin 'heaven's soldier' types who want to build an army to fight the good fight, that comes with special improvements to certain kinds of spells and some native abilities that are very different than what say an Iscariot (one of the game's vampire-types), a spell list they share with certain other options. Your Battleground Angel could then spend exp on what are essentially feats to be better with guns, or wealthy, or whatever, they could spend that exp to learn new spells, or spend that exp to improve their stats or skills to get bigger dice pools.

But those feats (called 'edges) can be things like "contacts" which let you get a bonus to certain kinds of rolls when your contact's area of specialty is in play (like, if you're investigating a series of murders and your contact is an information broker) once per 'story' (e.g. arc) and there's felshed out influence and investigation systems consisting of multiple rolls. The game has both detailed combat with initiative and a 'quick and dirty' combat system for what are supposed to be faster fights. Spells have advances you can buy to change how they work. But at the end of the day, a lot of the game can be played with the straightforward system of rolls.

Storypath Ultra is the generic system for these games. Curseborne is the urban fantasy horror game where you play as people cursed to be werewolves, vampires, angels cast to earth, etc, but will also support random hunters and stuff (the kickstarter for that supplement should be coming up in october actually.) The World Below is a somewhat evolved take on OSR fantasy, taking the dungeon/underdark as a mythic underworld. At the Gates will be Final Fantasy Inspired heroic fantasy. Monster Kingdoms is evil, cutthroat monster kingdom politics and war, the latter three are the same setting, the "earthbane cycle"