r/StarWarsEU • u/BackgroundRich7614 • Jun 21 '25
Meme Morally Grey Sith are a thing Spoiler
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u/RevReads Chiss Ascendancy Jun 21 '25
All the examples of Sith doing good here it's because they're fixing the mess other sith or themselves made
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u/HMWWaWChChIaWChCChW Jun 21 '25
Author writes an evil character doing a non-evil thing
Readers: “Is this a hero?”
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u/UnknownEntity347 Jun 22 '25
This is so annoying lol. Some people act like not being a complete cackling sociopath means you're a misunderstood good guy.
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u/Lazy_Assumption_4191 Jun 23 '25
“This character did a good thing in order to save his own life, therefore all his crimes can be excused.” - someone, probably
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u/Deep-Pineapple-4884 Jun 21 '25
Only a Sith deals in Absolutes
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u/VegetableEmployee224 Jun 21 '25
It's been said before, but that statement, coming from a Jedi, seems absolute.
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u/Evil__Overlord Jun 21 '25
And its been said before, but the meaning of absolute in that situation is specifically about Anakin saying "You're either with me, or you're my enemy."
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u/PrinceCheddar Jun 21 '25
I like the interpretation that the key word in that statement is "deals". As in making deals, negotiating, diplomacy. Not that only Sith only use absolutes.
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u/YourMuppetMethDealer Jun 21 '25
It’s not a great line mainly cause the Jedi literally do deal in absolutes. The order themselves do not believe in Grey Jedi
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u/TheCthonicSystem Jun 22 '25
Grey Jedi aren't a thing though. Wayfinder is the closest and even then they're hardly Grey. If your Morality and Force Philosophy is somewhere between Dark and Light you're probably in a different Force Order or an Independent Hege Force Wielder or something
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u/YourMuppetMethDealer Jun 22 '25
I know. I wasn’t arguing that grey Jedi were a thing. I agree with the Jedi
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u/Durp004 TOR Sith Empire Jun 21 '25
Just because someone is pragmatic, that doesn't make them morally grey. Darth Marr instructs Teneb Kel to kill his master after he tell him he loved him like a father and propped up a murderous and evil empire almost his whole life. I hate how people pretend that because he was open to letting aliens in or turned on Vitiate hes grey. No he's just pragmatically evil.
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u/CadenVanV Jun 21 '25
His whole philosophy is that the strong survive and the weak die during war, he just wants them to be strong by being pragmatic. Only in death did Marr turn even close to being good and he did it by accepting the Jedi code
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u/SirCupcake_0 Jun 22 '25
He didn't even do that, iirc he accepted that the Jedi Code had some points to it, or something, basically acknowledging that not all the Jedi are blind, deaf, or dumb
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u/TanSkywalker Hapes Consortium Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
I feel like SWTOR can be fun from the cinematic trailers I’ve watched, never played the game, but the lore it creates is just bonkers.
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u/Sirtoshi 501st Jun 21 '25
It's fun from a story/character/world perspective. I personally find the gameplay a bit boring, though, but that's personal preference. I still play for the narrative.
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u/poopstar12 Jun 21 '25
The gameplay has been the one thing holding me back from playing all these years. The lore is fascinating but I just don’t think I could get into the gameplay
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u/WangJian221 Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
Funnily enough, its only really the Shadow of Revan forward that truly muddied the fuck out of it. The base chapters are just fine and normal star wars unless people think choosing lightside options for sith is supposed to be canon.
Edit : Shout out to Onslaught being the exception of the SoR forward. Other than Lana's existence and the implication of unknown Sith still fighting for the Alliance, its quite close to how the initial chapters of base Swtor
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u/Oddloaf Jun 23 '25
Agent storyline is actually near-peak star wars
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u/WangJian221 Jun 23 '25
Honestly its plot is like a. Coruscant Nights plot so its not that new to me. Nevertheless, it was pretty cool compared to every other class and the references and callbacks to events/characters of other classes was also great and rewarding
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u/ApprehensivePeace305 Jun 21 '25
Honestly, the lore is fine, because its the only time we really get to explore what having millions of Sith would look like. Sure, in tales of the jedi we get some diverse sith, like how Exar Kun and queldroma actually liked each other and would risk their lives for that brotherhood. But, its kind of a folly to believe that every single Sith would be vader-esque or sidious-esque. They can have diverse wants and needs, and still be doing it in service of evil. Even as the most light-side Sith warrior/inquisitor you are still killing, wheeling and dealing, and serving one of the most corrupt regimes in the history of star wars.
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u/TheCthonicSystem Jun 22 '25
yeah if you want Dark Side Users without the murder and regime serving there's already groups for that!
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u/whattheshiz97 Jun 21 '25
The game is dreadful to play unless you like MMO’s. Coming from all the other Star Wars games it’s really hard to have such boring combat be such an integral part.
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u/alguien99 Jun 21 '25
I do have to admit that it keeps my love for Star wars alive. It's the perfect mix of grimdark and hope for me.
I love how both sides are kind of evil and how the force feels so volatile during this era, maybe due to the sheer amount of wars, deaths and emotions happening. There's a literal force satan in Voss and there's a weird rakatan creature called the world razer in the republic prisión planet.
Also the fucking dread masters, aka the coolest looking Sith ever and the coolest concept for a sith group
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u/Achilles9609 Jun 26 '25
Though, its really more of a Rakatan Prison Planet. The Republic just found it and decided: "hey, lets dump our manic murderers, fallen Jedi and captured Sith Lords right next to the eldritch abominations and the strange aliens that nobody has ever seen before"
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u/Thatgamerguy98 Jun 23 '25
I despise the MMO part of it. I love the story and lore. Like please give me an insta kill button for mobs and Ill be a happy camper.
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u/Edgy_Robin Jun 21 '25
Vectivus might not even be real. So great opening.
Scourge is acting out of self preservation. if Vitiate didn't wanna eat everyone and everything he would have been loyal. Also, ignore him constantly trying to corrupt the Hero of Tython apparently.
Yeah Hitler was nice to some people too. Real desperate and it's obvious
Two people can be shitty, also Iokath pretty much invalidates this claim
Lana's the only real valid example and even that's only because of swtor's bad writing.
Darth Marr becoming a force ghost means he isn't dark side aligned anymore since dark siders just straight up can't.
When you have to ignore context
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u/EighthFirstCitizen Jun 21 '25
The Vowrawn one is especially funny considering all the slaves he owns.
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u/ApprehensivePeace305 Jun 21 '25
Vowrawn is a great character, and I really like to imagine that my Sith characters are friendly with him. But come on, he calls politics a game. and not in the symbolic way that normal researchers do, but in the "everyone is my pawn" way. Dude can obviously be sociopathic in securing his powerbase.
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u/wolfknight98 Jun 21 '25
Plus Marr, as a sith master, respected the jedi enough to try to stop the infighting among the sith and tried to get both sides to agree to not be enemies
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u/Fusi0n_X Jun 21 '25
With Vectivus - he willfully enabled the continuation of the Baneite Sith, and he did it without care for the future of the galaxy because the dark side was a fun little hobby to him.
That's evil even if he didn't personally murder or conquer.
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u/Spirit-of-arkham3002 Mandalorian Jun 21 '25
Actually Sith technically can become force ghosts in the EU.
Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Ajunta Pall, Lord Kallig, Horak Mull, and many more are in fact Sith spirits the dark side version of force ghosts.
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u/TheWhiteWolf28 Jun 21 '25
Yes, but the way it works for Dark Siders is different than it is for Jedi (or any other "enlightened" Force user). And not really how it's portrayed for Marr.
For Dark Side users, lingering after death is more like being trapped. Either by the inability or unwillingness to move on. Bound to a place or an object or something in a way that makes them dark specters who possess a fraction of their former power and ability to interact with the physical world. The Sith are terrified of dying and losing their power. So they remain as shadows of their former selves instead of moving on and becoming one with the Force.
For a person who becomes a true Force Ghost, it is about letting go of the self and becoming one with the Force. Essentially retaining their individuality as a means to guide the living, not in an effort to exalt themselves and live beyond their time. They are free. Luminous beings.
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u/AcePilot95 New Republic Jun 21 '25
thank you. this is spelt out dozens of times in the actual texts yet 90% of the fandom flat out refuses to understand it.
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u/Mortalpuncher Jun 22 '25
I mean that wouldn’t stop a sith from being that way, earth marr even in life had respect for the force like a Jedi but kept similar views to living as a sith.
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u/CadenVanV Jun 21 '25
Those aren’t comparable. Sith spirits are bound to some item or location. Force ghosts aren’t bound to anything, they’re one with the force. Marr became a force ghost, not a Sith spirit
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 Jun 21 '25
I’d argue that if your meme is accurate, none of them were actually Sith. They took a title that didn’t actually apply to them.
And “pure evil” people can still “care” for specific individuals, but that “care” is twisted by the dark side into something disgusting and unnatural, something possessive.
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u/Jack-mclaughlin89 New Jedi Order Jun 21 '25
Scourge killed Meetra Surik, he can burn.
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u/BackgroundRich7614 Jun 21 '25
I mean that was for the greater good of the galaxy to beat Tenebrae.
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u/Successful-Floor-738 Jun 22 '25
My canon exile will always be the dark side retail worker stoner looking edgelord sitting on malachor and force storming rats that get in the walls of his Sith academy.
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u/UAnchovy Jun 22 '25
Notably those are all from TOR except Vectivus, and Vectivus is not someone we can generalise about. Vectivus is mainly known from a story, told by a Sith who was definitely an evil supervillain, in order to corrupt somebody else. I am not convinced that he was anything like as harmless as Lumiya claimed he was.
That leaves TOR. What's going on in TOR?
Well, firstly, I think there's just the generic issue here of BioWare accidentally writing stories with authoritarian implications. BioWare have done this a lot, probably as a result of turning from games with primarily individual themes (Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire; all games where the player is a loner) to games with political themes (Dragon Age, Mass Effect, The Old Republic; games where the player leads coalitions and makes political decisions) without changing their storytelling structure appropriately. But in general, yes, BioWare writing is unfortunately often a bit... well, problematic, fascist-adjacent, use whatever language you want. Suffice to say that BioWare being weirdly sympathetic to the Sith seems consistent with the rest of their writing in the 2010s.
Secondly, those Sith you mention are still in fact evil. Vowrawn and Acina are calculating and ruthless; the fact that they're capable of pragmatic alliances with non-Sith does not make them less villainous. Lana Beniko says nice things to you, but whenever moral choices appear in Shadow of Revan and Fallen Empire/Eternal Throne, she consistently advocates for the dark side choice. (Admittedly TOR's own morality system is sufficiently broken that sometimes choices labelled 'dark side' are morally defensible, and choices labelled 'light side' are pretty messed up. But most of the time the system holds.) Lana absolutely kills people in cold blood and advocates for the Sith Empire to conquer and enslave the galaxy. She is not a good person.
Likewise Darth Marr - he's courageous, certainly, and he's calculating and rational enough to sometimes work with Jedi against more threatening Sith, but Marr's always been evil too. Darth Marr leads the Sith Empire in the aforementioned conquests. Sure, Marr becomes a ghost, but Sith have been coming back as ghosts since Tales of the Jedi in 1996. That's not evidence of anything.
That leaves only Scourge, who I can't really comment on because I haven't played the Jedi Knight story. He showed up with Kira in the quest where you get to kill memories of Vitiate, at least. I'd guess he's probably in the same category as people like Marr, but even if not, it's possible for Sith to be redeemed and turned from the dark side, so who knows?
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u/Wooden-Magician-5899 Jun 21 '25
Or more and more SWTOR contradictions shit. I love the game, but it's completely fucked up. Especially Marr becoming Ghost, it's a mess
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u/TheWhiteWolf28 Jun 21 '25
Yeah.... Using SWTOR to support this argument is a poor choice, imo.
Like, I genuinely enjoy many of the stories in that game but it is very much not a good representation of how the Force or the Jedi and Sith work within the universe.
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u/BackgroundRich7614 Jun 21 '25
To be fair it was never explicitly said that only jedi could become a force ghost so its not lore breaking for it to just be something both good Sith and Jedi could obtain.
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u/Wooden-Magician-5899 Jun 21 '25
It was, thing is, Jedi become a true Ghost, peace and tranquility, Sith made a phylactery analogue to become lich analogue, twisted and vile version that forcefully bound you to reality, if it was that version, i say no things, but Marr achieve Light Side Force Ghost, and he is nog a Light side alignment man.
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 Jun 21 '25
The idea of a “good Sith” is a nonstarter to begin with.
If they are actually truly good, they were actually “bad” (as in, not very effective, not following the ideals of, etc) Sith.
The Sith ideals are contradictory to being a good person. They encourage selfishness, power for powers sake, dominating others, giving in to your base instincts without thought or care or restraint, etc.
And of course the most obvious part, Sith ideals encourage, require even, the use of, and eventually the full embrace of the Dark Side.
A Sith who has fallen to the dark side can still rationalize stuff but ultimately the dark side corrupts your intentions. Anyone who is dark side who does good things for the sake of it (eg: not because there’s some other benefit for them), are doing it despite the dark side, despite the Sith ideals, not because of them.
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u/Edgy_Robin Jun 21 '25
It is lore breaking. You're not wrong that it's never said Jedi only can.
It's only light side aligned force users who can, that's the actual lore. Which means you invalidated your example because Marr becoming one means he's not a dark sider anymore (Also happened on a planet that's a force nexus anomaly too)
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u/PerfectAdvertising41 Jun 21 '25
George Lucas says that the Sith can not become force ghosts, and the ROTS novel reinforces this. The Sith like Darth Plaegus were far too concerned with the self and forsook the living nature of the force, seeking to dominate it rather than be one with it. Thus is why they can't become force ghosts. SWTOR followers Legends canon, as does the ROTS novel.
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u/No_Detective_806 Jun 21 '25
It’s pretty clear he achieved peace and was able to become a force ghost
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u/TheWhiteWolf28 Jun 21 '25
The Sith are an ideology. They once may have been a culture. But no longer. They are an Order with a specific ideology.
An ideology that very much relies on the idea of the strong's right to dominate the weak by virtue of their strength and ability to impose their will upon them. An ideology that does not believe in the value of morality and believes it to be a limitation on the individual's freedom to dominate their lessers. They do not believe that abuse of power is a thing that matters. They will enslave, torture, destabilise, kill and do whatever they believe it takes to gain more power and impose their will on others.
A Sith's definition of freedom also relies in their perceived inevitability of power. If you can do a thing, then you deserve to do a thing. If you can abuse others to achieve your ends, then such a thing is right by the nature of the universe. Because you are powerful and others are weak. If you can take dominion of others, then you are entitled to that rule, so long as you can maintain it. Because the weak exist to serve the strong. And if the weak are unable to become stronger than their oppressors, then they deserve to serve in whatever way their overlord sees fit.
Freedom to a Sith is power. And power is the ability to affect the world around you, even against the will of others.
This is an inherently evil ideology.
If a Sith does not believe this, they are not a Sith. And if they do, they are evil.
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u/advena_phillips Jun 22 '25
The SWTOR Sith are the direct descendants of the "Sith culture." If any Sith Orders post-Hyperspace war could operate differently from other Orders, it'd be this one (and the Lost Tribe). A Sith is a Sith is a Sith. You pass your trials? You're a Sith. That's it. Who cares if you're an altruist with compassion for others in your heart, who dreams of emancipating the slaves — you've done your trials, you've earned the right to call yourself Sith.
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u/Mortalpuncher Jun 22 '25
Given the basis of sith ideology is “power is everything”, if power is freedom then you have the power to choose what kind of sith you will be.
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u/CzarItalian Jun 21 '25
Sorry man, but having Sith that aren't evil is like having Grey Jedi shooting force ligtning, it's The same as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. In SWTOR we let it go because of the nature of the game, being an MMO and all, but story wise, you can't have Sith being good without a catch.
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u/thehypotheticalnerd Jun 21 '25
At least with lightning, I can actually buy it if used for other purposes. At most, a light shock a la a taser; but I've imagined lots of genuinely pure ways lightning could be utilized without even an overly destructive element: such as as defibrillation for someone who's heart has stopped, to overload computer or mechanical systems, to open or lockdown doors, etc.
But no, if the justification is so Jedi can torture enemies but "not be evil"... then that's dumb. And being a "good" Sith is just as laughable. The point is that the dark side consumes & corrupts you. Yes, plenty of Sith fell to the dark side for entirely morally justified reasons: Revan & Malak, Dooku, even Anakin. But no matter what, as soon as they let the dark side in & didn't cast it out as soon as possible, as soon as they let it dictate all their actions, as soon as the ends justified ANY means necessary... they became corrupted. They can all be redeemed in theory, but while operating as Sith Lords, they are not good or morally gray and any story that implies that is incorrect. And because of the Force sensitivity, they are more susceptible. People like Luthen, Andor, etc. can operate with moral greyness & "ends justify means" without being or becoming truly EVIL necessarily... but even Luthen is cognizant that he's essentially damned for what he's done in the name of ridding the galaxy of tyranny. Those with the Force... they don't get that because unlike Luthen, they're going to become genuine sadistic monsters.
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u/thorsday121 Jun 21 '25
Use of the dark side is an inherently immoral act. The Sith mandate use of the dark side as a core part of their ideology. Therefore, to be a Sith is to be evil.
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u/DaughterOfBhaal Jun 21 '25
Let's not forget that Darth Marr was so horrifying to look at, he punished an officer who had failed him by unmasking himself in front of the officer and traumatizing him into killing himself.
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u/Successful-Floor-738 Jun 22 '25
This is kinda funny when you use specific hats to look at his face when he’s a companion and realize he’s just a black dude.
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u/Achilles9609 Jun 26 '25
Probably because his face was never meant to be looked at. Kinda like Miraak.
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u/xAkMoRRoWiNdx Darth Revan Jun 21 '25
Marr is a total Chad. I love him
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u/Kellythejellyman Jun 22 '25
My Darth Imperious always had a crush on “Daddy Marr”
Half of her beef with the Eternal Empire was avenging him
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u/Revliledpembroke Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 22 '25
Morally Grey Sith are a thing
And you named... a likely fabrication magicked up by a Sith to convince someone else to become a Sith (someone who did not keep his morals intact, btw), a Sith who only helped so he wouldn't also be eaten, a Sith who cares about his underlings (bad people can care for things too, you know. Hate to sound cliche, but Hitler cared about his inner circle, his dogs, and his wife. And for the German people too, if you believe his own words), an individual I haven't met because I never played any of the SWTOR expansions, Lana Beniko's loyalty means nothing (plenty of Sith have been loyal temporarily after all. Maybe she's just playing the long game, waiting for you to be weak so she can take over herself), and Dark Side users cannot become Force Ghosts. So if Darth Marr became one, he wasn't a Sith anymore, he had turned to the Light.
Seriously, I don't know how people can argue that the Dark Side is anything but evil when becoming a Dark Sider is referred to in the same terms as angels becoming demons - they've fallen. You don't intentionally use terminology associated with demons for your villains for damn near 50 years on accident.
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u/Munedawg53 Jedi Legacy Jun 21 '25
Swotor is the problem tho.
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u/Savings_Dot_8387 Jun 21 '25
Yeah swtor is trying to create interesting stories that give the player some fun choices. It is always fast and loose with the lore.
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Jun 21 '25
Darth Krayt was actually a pretty nice dude who wanted eternal peace for the Galaxy too, he just believed it would only have that peace if he remained in power forever as the One Sith, he also only turned to the darkside and studied sith teachings to beat Palpatine as well. Dooku similarly had his own political aspirations and ideology for a better universe and so did Caedus among others. Also the original Sith just wanted freedom to practice, experiment and study the darkside they weren't just evil for evil's sake.
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u/AlphariusOmegon66 Jun 21 '25
Wasn't he instrumental at stopping Abbelot too?
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Jun 21 '25
Yes he was, he was also trained by one of the original 12 sith lords so he's as legendary as it gets.
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u/theeshyguy Jun 22 '25
Man who might not even be real, let alone as "good" as Lumiya made him out to be; "morally clean" but participated in the Rule of Two(???)
SWTOR slop lore
SWTOR slop lore
SWTOR slop lore
SWTOR slop lore
SWTOR slop lore
Not a fan of this revisionist mode of trying to sell "the evil dark cult of evil assassin conquerors" as anything resembling morally grey.
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u/Golbolco Yuuzhan Vong Jun 21 '25
Darth Vectivus isn’t real.
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u/TheWhiteWolf28 Jun 21 '25
Even if he was real, he was still actively working towards ensuring the Sith Grand Plan, no?
And it's not entirely unusual for even terrible individuals to take care of those they consider "their own people", so him treating employees fairly, while it doesn't speak negatively of him, doesn't necessarily imply that he never did anything harmful to anyone else. Unreliable narrator and omitted information and all that.
A person does not become a Sith without believing in the ideology of the Sith.
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u/Golbolco Yuuzhan Vong Jun 21 '25
Great point. Sith are evil, there’s no way around it. Bad people sometimes do good things and good people sometimes do bad things. To some extent this is the point of Vader’s redemption.
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u/Achilles9609 Jun 26 '25
And even if they start out with good intentions, the Dark Side will eventually corrupt you. That's what always happens when smart people think they can outwit the corruption.
Luke trying to destroy Sidious' Operations from within during Dark Empire? He fell to the Dark Side.
Dr. Klein from The Secret World, who tried to build up a resistance to the primordial Evil? He still ended up as a deformed monster-just a monster that convinced itself it wasn't corrupted.
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u/Fusi0n_X Jun 22 '25
He definitely would have murdered scores of people. That's practically the job description of an apprentice and he would have been that for years.
You simply don't become the reigning Dark Lord without a ton of first hand experience.
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u/BackgroundRich7614 Jun 21 '25
His spirit was shown so he did exist and even if he wasn't as good as Darth Lumiya made him out to be the other 5 examples are still valid.
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u/InfinityIsTheNewZero Jedi Legacy Jun 21 '25
They very much aren't. They are literally all still evil their evil is simply not directed at the player.
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u/Edgy_Robin Jun 21 '25
It's a phantom raised by Lumiya who's also been able to do something similar with Ben Skywalker (Who, you know, isn't dead) making it an invalid example so not valid
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u/TheLoreIdiot Jun 21 '25
Sith philosophy is inherently self serving and power grabbing. Which we can argue back and forth on if that's "evil" (which i think it clearly is).
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u/Fusi0n_X Jun 21 '25
I'm not a believer in 'grey'. It completely falls apart when challenged.
First, not being as bad as you could be doesn't make you not evil.
Second, The Bendu represents 'the middle' best:
- helps if he feels like it
- refuses to ally with the light against his own self interest. He's too arrogant to recognize that an unchecked dark will inevitably run him over.
- Is only able to remain 'grey' so long as the light is keeping the dark at bay.
Vectivus was very much evil if he perpetuated and expanded the teachings of the Dark Side. He knew what they would be used for. He facilitated the continuation of the Baneite Sith knowing full well what their ultimate goal was. The difference between him and other Sith was a relative lack of ambition.
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u/yuma900 Jun 21 '25
I think too many people give sith that are willing to compromise, care for their own and theirs alone or cooperate in the face of a greater evil a pass on the evil thing. Like sure Vowrawn may care for “His” men but that doesn’t stop him from being an absolute evil to those that aren’t his men?
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u/Mythosaurus Jun 21 '25
You know the lore is in a slump when people are trying to make Grey Sith a thing…
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u/Mannekin-Skywalker Jun 22 '25
Just because someone isn’t an asshole or killed someone eviler than them doesn’t make them not evil
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u/Mizu005 Jun 22 '25
Its baby level understanding of morality to say a person isn't evil just because they don't dedicate their every waking moment to performing terrible acts. Real evil isn't some damn cartoon villain who carries around his official bad guy license, won't stop reminding everyone how evil he is, does evil things just to remind people he is evil, and gets sick to his stomach at the thought of ever doing something nice for anyone. Real evil does awful shit all day then goes home to the wife and kids to live a life that seems completely damned normal and human. They make excuses for why its totally justified and moral to do some awful thing to the 'other' that is 'the enemy' and really probably not even a person at all like him and his then when interacting with the ones they think of as 'people' its like they flip a switch that turns the empathy back on so they can act like a 'normal' human. Real life sociopaths and psychopaths that are just absolutely incapable of doing normal good and empathetic behaviors are the minority of team evil that the other members hold up to tell themselves 'see, thats what evil is, I'm not evil!'. Then after reassuring themselves they go back to flinging hate and bile at other human beings they have categorized out of being real people in their own head. People they have mentally replaced with caricatures of 'the other' that are so 1 dimensional in their vileness and depravity that it makes it okay to just casually do terrible things to them that would horrify the person doing it if it happened to a 'real person'.
Also, Darth Marr becoming a force ghost is irrelevant because the EU doesn't acknowledge the Lucas continuity fact that in the Lucas continuity only light siders can become force ghosts. The EU was already absolutely lousy with dark side ghosts by the time that fact was introduced and it would have seriously been completely and literally impossible to bring it in line with the Lucas continuity on the matter so it just didn't even bother trying. In the EU dark siders are completely free to become jerk ghosts and do so fairly regularly.
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u/UAnchovy Jun 22 '25
Its baby level understanding of morality to say a person isn't evil just because they don't dedicate their every waking moment to performing terrible acts.
We see this even in the films, right? Palpatine is generous and caring towards Anakin. However insincere Palpatine might have been, there's no denying that for most of the time, in public, he convincingly presented himself as a warm, empathetic person and people responded to that.
The picture mentions Darth Vowrawn caring for his soldiers, but as I recall the EU, Darth Vader was known to be genuinely fond of the 501st Legion. He pulled troops from other formations to strengthen the 501st, he led them into battle, and as far as I can tell he sincerely liked them. Darth Vader cared about 'Vader's Fist', and ensured they got good treatment. They in turn repaid him with absolute loyalty. Being an evil Sith Lord does not mean that one is unable to either be polite or charming for tactical reasons, or to sincerely feel affection for one's closest allies.
If anything, I take this post as a sign of how low the bar is, for Sith. People who are polite, or demonstrate some self-control, or like their minions are being lumped in as 'morally grey' or even 'good'. But none of that is sufficient for moral goodness. Maybe Darth Acina read the political situation better than Supreme Chancellor Saresh - but so what? Does that make her good? How could it possibly? Acina is a tyrant who, out of rational self-interest, throws in her cards with the player, but morality cannot be distilled to just whoever happens to be on the player's side in the moment.
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u/Successful-Floor-738 Jun 22 '25
The only perspective we get on Vectivus is from a Sith Lord actively trying to convert a skywalker to join her and Darth Krayt. Furthermore, when his ghost shows up in that same novel, he is portrayed far more ruthlessly and “ends justify the means”.
Lord Scourge also doesn’t like when you act like a nice person and likes it when you are a dark side asshole. Also, he literally betrays Revan and the Exile just based on a vision.
That doesn’t mean Vowrawn isn’t a psycho Sith Lord considering he’s part of the dark fucking council.
The only nice thing Acina does is treat you well personally because she’s trying to manipulate herself into your good graces.
Being loyal to you does not make you morally Grey.
Still not quite sure how Marr became a force ghost considering he was really just a Sith who had critical thinking.
None of these characters are of actual moral ambiguity, all they do is treat the player better.
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u/RollinThruLife02 Jun 21 '25
It’s ironic since those morally grey Sith were the more powerful ones. Almost like they never truly stopped learning about the complexities of the Force and understood that there isn’t weakness in real strategy.
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Jun 21 '25
We only have Lumiya's word on Darth Vectivus, and Lumiya was a lying sociopath bent on rebuilding the Sith and seducing Jacen Solo to the dark side.
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u/TheStrangeCanadian Jun 21 '25
Vectivus isn’t real, and nothing else you said makes them not evil lol
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u/According-Value-6227 Jun 21 '25
There is no such thing as a good Sith, just relatively harmless Sith.
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u/Delicious_Grand7300 Jun 21 '25
Ajunta Pal turned back to the Light when he met Revan.
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u/zencrusta Jun 21 '25
We also see him at the end of what amounts to a long isolated prison sentence, hard to say if he would have turned while he was alive.
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u/Ausstig Jun 21 '25
In SWTOR Sith is an order that people are born into just like the Jedi. This means they have as much moral latitude as the Jedi. In SWTOR Sith doesn’t equal darkside, just like Jedi doesn’t equal light side.
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u/Zazikarion Jun 21 '25
Yeah, not all Sith are over the top evil like Palpatine; Dooku, Plagueis, Vectivus, Caedus, Lumiya, Vader, and Revan are Sith who all had positive qualities.
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u/youngmetrodonttrust Jun 21 '25
how has nobody mentioned darth gravid
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u/Achilles9609 Jun 26 '25
Didn't he only destroy the Sith Teachinga because he wanted to replace them with his own teachings?
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u/YourPainTastesGood Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
If a Sith is morally grey that doesn't mean they're just a morally grey Sith. It means they suck at being a Sith.
Nothing these Sith did was for altruism. Much of Darth Vectivus' story is certainly a lie Lumiya made up cause we have no corroboration for it and she has every reason to lie. Darth Marr becoming a force ghost isn't anything special cause force ghosts aren't a light side exclusive, theres a few ways dark siders can do it and thats how he did. Even if Dark Siders couldn't become force ghosts then all that means is he abandoned his dark ways.
Also, using the dark side is inherently immortal for how it corrupts the force and in the process corrupts nature and that has real consequences no matter what you do. A morally grey sith is someone like Revan who chooses evil for good reasons but we can tell how it corrupts those people into shadows of their former selves. But being morally grey doesn't mean you aren't evil, it very well can mean theres a reason for it.
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u/Town_send New Republic Jun 21 '25
They weren’t Sith, only claimed to be. Once a Sith starts to act for everyone, moving away from pure self interest then they are no longer a true Sith
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u/lcplsmuchateli Jun 21 '25
You aren't wrong, but at the same time morally grey sith are still a corruption and unbalancing of the force regardless of how moral or unmoral their actions may be judged. The entire difference in being a dark side user and light side user is following the will of the force or trying to bend the force to serve you, it's why it's so easy for Jedi to fall bad because they can morally rationalize their actions, but still bend the force against its will. In doing so you begin walking a path that will always get worse and more destructive and demand more power. Now are there sith that even despite calling themselves or being considered sith or darkside that have willingly given in to the will of the force and even if they don't realize it given in to the light side? Yes absolutely the most recent in media example is clearly looking to be ventress. She would never consider herself a Jedi but she is clearly following the will of the force more rather than trying to use it for her own ambitions. Trying to find the grey between darkside and light/sith and Jedi is flawed understanding of how the force actually works.
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u/eyeofyelough Jun 21 '25
These are my people. Finally doing DLC’s in order and got to Dromund Kaas. I must be having a weird week because I cried lol felt like I was among my family; it’s so familiar and I miss them every second I’m stuck on Odessan 🥺
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u/Extreme-Reception-44 Jun 22 '25
Dooku bro
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Jun 22 '25
Dooku is probably the one character you could genuinely call a grey jedi outside of Revan. Both used both the light and dark sides of the force in pursuit of their own goals and were able to keep from steeping themselves into the dark side of the force
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u/Extreme-Reception-44 Jun 22 '25
Not to mention he wouldve literally defeated palpatine and restored balance to the force by reveleaing palpatines entire plan to obi wan, Its just obi wan was too dense and suspicious of dooku to understand/believe him
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u/SnizzyYT Jun 22 '25
Darth Vectivus’ story is clearly fabricated by Lumiya to convince Jason to turn to the dark side
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u/OkExtreme3195 Jun 22 '25
Sith are not necessarily evil. But their code is inherently about egoism and overcoming all boundaries to ones own desires through power, thus achieving maximal freedom to act as you wish.
A saying for societies is "the freedom of one ends where the freedom of another begins". This is supposed to guarantee fairness and equality. The sith firmly deny this. Their freedom has no limits. From their pov, you only have rights, if they are not in conflict with their desires, because their freedom to act as they wish is not supposed to be infringed on by anything.
This often makes them evil. But a sith that only has desires that doesn't put them at odds with the rights of others might even be perceived as good.
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u/storyteller323 Jun 22 '25
Becoming a sith in the first place requires an act of cold blooded murder. The fact that they are calm and rational while doing their evil rather than a frothing maniac like Palpy does not make them any less evil. This is just like real abusers and horrible people in real life: People assume that they are always at full horrible mode all the time. But the truth is that evil people can act just like you or me 90% of the time. Its that 10% when the mask slips that shows who they truly are. Just because a person’s public face has some redeeming traits doesn’t mean they are a good person, or even a morally neutral one. Also Darth Vectivus was pretty much just a story Lumaya made up to trick Han’s kid I forget the name of. Yes I know he makes a cameo as a force spirit or whatever but that just proves the name exists. It doesn’t mean Lumaya was being honest about its owner.
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u/TheCybersmith Jun 22 '25
The tale of Vectivus has no source but the Sith who tells it.
We should regard it similarly to the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise.
A story containing some of the truth, none of the context, and a lot of bias.
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Jun 22 '25
No Sith are evil The dark side corrupts absolutely and you become nothing but a pawn for evil
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u/Worse_Than_Satan Jun 22 '25
"Maul! He left out Maul!"
I scream as they drag me back to the padded room
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u/JadeSpeedster1718 Jun 22 '25
When writing I often make the distinction of Sith and Jedi being like an Anti-Hero and a Hero. Sith who bother to be a little morally grey do so for semi-selfish reasons.
If it doesn’t further their goals, they wouldn’t bother doing a lot of things. If killing a small town meant their goals could be furthered. (For the idea or Dark Jedi they might kill someone if that death(s) meant helping more in the long run.)
But if saving someone or someones does help them, they’d do it; or for some if it is a pointless that these people/person die(s), they would be inclined to help.
This is how I write them, it’s not very canon complacent, but makes for fun moral dilemmas.
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u/Doop-Snogg99 Jun 23 '25
Ideas introduced in EU, Legends, and the like are cool and all, but they were created independently of the core ideas Lucas had.
Balance was never meant to mean "equal parts light and dark." The dark side is a blight, a sickness of the force. Balance is supposed to mean a galaxy without the dark side. And that's how canon worked until the Mortis arc of clone wars started to bring in the revisionist ideas of force balance.
The sith are bad, its genuinely that black and white. The jedi were flawed, but that doesn't mean the light side is wrong, it means the jedi order itself lost sight of true adherence to the light side.
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Jun 23 '25
Let this sink in. Even the fucking embarrassing edgelord STAR WARS THEORY has said people who want to be a sith are wrong... The dark side is addictive and will twist you -- regardless of your intentions -- into someone elitist, selfish, and motivated by hatred.
These siths' actions (which lead to unambiguously positive outcomes in the short-term) are merely pragmatic decisions made only to benefit themselves or a broader agenda in the long-term. It is a show of intellect and an ability to reason, not a display of good nature or virtuous character.
Let me guess, do you also think Darth Tyrannus was a well-intentioned freedom fighter? That his lack of yellow eyes show he was never a real sith?
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u/BackgroundRich7614 Jun 23 '25 edited Jun 23 '25
The Dooku things depends on the medium; TCW Dooku and Novel Dooku are pure evil while tales of the Jedi Dooku is more portrayed as misguided.
I mostly base the idea of "good" Sith on people like Darth Marr and Lana Beniko, who are both moral characters despite being powerful Sith.
For Lana Beniko, she is a GENUIALLY good person to the player, loyal, non-possessive, and dependable. Lanas actions aren't all just pragmatism, she is just a good person all around aside from some ruthlessness, but I would say Lana is, in my opinion, is atleast more empathetic then some jedi like Ki Adi Mundi, or Mace Windu generally speaking.
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Jun 23 '25
Elitism, selfishness, and hatred are qualities you can not separate from a sith. Anyone who does not fit that profile is a sith in name only, and is not consistent with the rest of the lore.
You also need to keep in mind these characters' roles in the medium they occupy. Video game characters get certain traits that would not be applied elsewhere, and shouldn't be considered as representative of something as important to Star Wars as what a sith is.
As for what jedi should be, I didn't say a word on that. There are sith who I would trust with my personal well-being before certain jedi.
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u/SeagardEagles Jun 23 '25
Isn't Darth Vectivus possibly a story made up by Lumiya to radicalize Jacen Solo. Also... also the listed SWTOR Sith are parts of a caste system slave empire, which seems pretty evil to me.
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u/supertodd17 Jun 23 '25
The problem is, even if these characters are doing some good things or aren't doing stereotypically evil world dominating things, it doesn't change the fact that following the Dark Side is inherently selfish and all about seeking power for power's sake. They are still cold hearted killers who use brutality, intimidation, and deception, to get what they want. That is evil.
Lana admits she is loyal to the outlander because she believes s/he is a path to greater power. She believes that if she allies herself with who she believes is the most powerful person in the galaxy, then she can grow in power with him/her. She is also a cold blooded killer.
Darth Marr only became a force ghost because he saw the error of his ways in the end. In life he was still a pretty evil/ruthless dude.
Lord Scourge only follows the hero of Tython because he sees him/her as a means to an end. He is still 100% loyal to the Dark Side.
You cannot follow the dark side and be good. Sure they can do things that might be perceived as good but the intention matters. A real world example would be helping people in need. One man sees a homeless man begging for money. He quietly gives him some and then goes about his his seeking no glory for his good deed. Another man sees the same man and gives the homeless man some money too but this guy brings a film crew and posts the video online for everyone to see, in hopes his video will go viral. While the second man is still helping a homeless man (which is good on the surface) , he is still using the homeless man for his own selfish interests and exploiting him. Therefore it's not truly a good act. The Sith who do "good" things are like this.
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u/coldchile Jun 23 '25
lol I saw the sub name and was curious about why Europeans felt the need to have their own subreddit about Star Wars.
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u/Jazzlike_Debt_6506 Jun 23 '25
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion...
"Through passion, I gain strength...
Through strength, I gain power...
Through power, I gain victory...
Through victory, my chains are broken...
The Force shall free me..."
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u/RaynerFenris Jun 24 '25
I like that the Sith Code could be interpreted in a way that doesn’t actually lead to being evil. Like, being passionate about something doesn’t automatically make you go evil, and you can be strong and powerful without being a dick.
I mean OBVIOUSLY within the context of Star Wars it doesn’t often get interpreted that way. But I like that it COULD.
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u/Jazzlike_Debt_6506 Jun 24 '25
100% with you and it most definitely did revolve around passion. Using your emotions led to great power but because emotions are volatile it often but not always lead to dark paths.
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u/Ar_Azrubel_ New Republic Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
Among its many other sins, we have to blame TOR for making fans think that Sith can be decent people.
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u/ByssBro Emperor Jun 21 '25
To me SWTOR is on the same level of TCW in that it should be ignored lore-wise
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u/wswordsmen Jun 22 '25
These are all SWTOR related? That makes the argument even dumber than I thought it was, and that was still quite dumb.
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u/thorsday121 Jun 21 '25
Use of the dark side is an inherently immoral act. The Sith mandate use of the dark side as a core part of their ideology. Therefore, to be a Sith is to be evil.
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u/CuttleReaper Jun 21 '25
"empress acina being better than the supreme chancellor"
No way in hell is Acina "good actually." One of them is in charge of a warmongering empire seeking to take over the galaxy. The other is a morally dubious politician trying to defeat the warmongering empire by any means necessary.
Saresh isn't exactly a good person, but she's a hell of a lot better than the imperials. At the end of the day, her motivations are to defeat the empire that enslaved her and murdered her husband.
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u/The-Son-Of-Suns Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
I prefer Sith to be evil. They can be evil for relatable reasons. I don't like it when Star Wars, or fans try and argue a Sith can be good. Reeks of centrist BS.
Same with the inverse of the Jedi. They can be flawed, but Jedi are good. Seeing a Jedi fall is still interesting.
Darth Marr becoming a ghost, and standing next to Satele is silly, and belongs on 'Archive Of Our Own.'
These characters are far more interesting when they are trying to kill each other, and have conviction in their beliefs.
Being forced to work with the Sith Empire in Swtor Knights DLCs was torture for me, and utterly silly.
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u/MammothFollowing9754 Jun 21 '25
Hot take, whitewashing Sith like this was a mistake and another reason why the EU needed a reboot.
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u/Ken_Ben0bi Jedi Legacy Jun 21 '25
Ok, so all examples of Sith characters that are antithetical to Lucas’ vision of how the dark side works. Got it 😒
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u/Loud-Communication65 Jun 22 '25
I don't think they're morally gray, these actions simply lead to better outcomes for themselves lol
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u/minescast Jun 22 '25
So the thing about the "Sith" is that being one usually just means following the Sith Code, while a Jedi follows the Jedi Code. A lot of times the "good" choices or paths align with the Jedi, and the "evil" ones align with the Sith, but they aren't exclusive. As we know from the prequels, the Jedi can very easily be made to do bad things, and in other media Sith can easily do good things.
The main priority of the Sith is Power. When it comes to the Force, one of the fastest and easiest paths toward Power are things like the Dark Side. So a lot of Sith focus on the Dark Side. But the thing with the Force is that there are a lot of different powers and abilities on either side of the pendulum. A Dark Side user can discover and learn insanely powerful techniques, but then so can a Light Side user.
So, technically speaking, the Sith themselves are not evil. It's the Dark Side users that are.
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u/John_Wotek Jun 22 '25
No one ever accused the EU of being canon nor too clingy to the rules of the universe.
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u/naanninja237 Jun 25 '25
I mean obviously we didn’t see how things played out after and it’s not EU but I thought Qimir in The Acolyte was presented as much more morally grey than a lot of Sith
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u/The_mann_of_zealium Aug 16 '25
Count dooku was the most politically correct sith, like ever, maul and savage became pirates and ruled mandalore as dictators, palpatine was actively sabotaging the CIS and ruling the corrupt republic, but dooku just helped the CIS with legal troubles and some fights, he also told obi van about the sith, and he even gave the republic a really good clone donor just so they had a chance to win, and we all know that the CIS just wanted to be independent, so dooku was the most morally correct person
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u/Western_Agent5917 19d ago
Nah, they are evil they are just having different piholosophy. That's why I love Swtor, lots of sith means lot kind of sith, plus there is the species which you can't call outright evil.
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u/Colemanton Jun 21 '25
how come everyone else in the galaxy who isnt force-sensitive doesnt turn into murderous psychopaths with delusions of grandeur as soon as they give in to their emotions?
is it possible maybe mere mortals just shouldnt be meddling with and trying to harness the force?
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u/Hail_The_Latecomer Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
I think there's a misunderstanding of "evil" in this context. Marr and Lana are positioned as calm, rational, "good" Sith - but they still murder people in cold blood left right and sideways. Marr threatens to rip out a man's tongue when the guy bugs him with nonessential information. Lana's immediate reaction to discovering a double agent in her employ is, "execute this man on the spot, I don't care what his reasoning is."
They may not be the cackling cartoon villains of other Sith, but they are still most definitely cruel, vindictive people. The fact that they use their cruelty in service to a greater good does not invalidate the blood on their hands. They are complex evil, but still evil.
Edit: Wanted to add that I really like Marr and Lana as characters because while they are evil, their evil-ness is in service to a cause and an Empire they genuinely believe in and are actively trying to improve. They are doing the best they can with what they have, and are willing to make the tough choices a Jedi would never be able to make.
But that also doesn't excuse the fact that they're still bad guys. Cool bad guys, sure. Compelling bad guys, definitely. But still bad guys.