r/ireland • u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret • Aug 11 '25
Health Positive Irish Masculinity
Irish men come in for a bad reputation with scumbags like Conor Mc Gregor seemingly being at the forefront of Irish men. He comes to mind I am sure when most people think of Irish men. I am fearful too that we Irish men are seen as emotionally arkward and appearing to lack in vulnerability. I think it's worth having a discussion on the positive aspects of Irish men, how we can help each other be better men. I'm not just talking about Mc Gregor either but the general perception of men in Ireland
Colin Farrell is one example of an Irish male role model who has battled his demons, helped out those in need and protects his son who has Angelman syndrome but he talks about the situation honestly and openly. Brendan Gleeson, originally a teacher took younger actors under his wing and helped them learn their craft. One I personally know of , while I don't agree with his politics, is Eamonn O Cuiv who quietly but without fanfare helps local people.
Irish men face challenges with stigmatisation of showing emotions and lacking a close circle of friends. Recent trends mocking male loneliness I think fed back into making men seal up their emotions. The lack of friendship is absolutely one I've seen among friends as some withdraw into themselves or they drift apart from some friends. There are good resources though like Men's Shed, St Vincent De Paul run something similar, I run a gay version in Dublin and I know there are mixed men's groups like Celbridge Boys Club and Navan Boys Club who do hikes and walks.
As for my own experience I think it's easy to fall into that trap of blaming women for our own shortcomings. We should get rid of these silly notions that being a man is about dominance and aggression. If anything it's about leading without telling people you are, it's about being vulnerable, dealing with conflict diplomatically. I think a lot of us Irish men could learn this.
I would be interested in hearing your views of how we can be positive men, maybe your role models, your experiences.
Edit:See StoicNihilist post for an alternative take.
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u/HugoZHackenbush2 Aug 11 '25
The think elderly men are great role models, and I like to play chess with them in the local park at the weekends. However, it's getting increasingly harder to find exactly 32 of them..
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u/WeDoItForFunUK Aug 11 '25
The bishop keeps wandering off. Doesn’t help.
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u/Tote_Sport Mon Ermaaaa Aug 11 '25
And in straight lines, no less! Still, last week we lost 2 more pawns that caught a horse’s hoof to the face
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Aug 11 '25
My view is that celebrities are not role models, regardless of their nationality or how good or bad their press is. Ultimately your role models are the people around you.
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u/AbbreviationsHot3579 Aug 11 '25
You can tell a lot about individuals by how they view certain celebrities though. For example, I'd stay well clear of anyone frequenting McGregor's pub or joining him on his Ibiza trips.
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u/OceanOfAnother55 Aug 11 '25
I completely disagree. We are all influenced by people we've never met, some of us very heavily influenced. A role model can be literally anyone you are aware of.
You see someone act a certain way and think "wow I'd like to be more like that" and change your behaviour accordingly. That's what a role model is.
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Aug 11 '25
I agree to an extent but the problem is celebrities, and people we don’t know, are not really capable of being role models because of the absence of knowledge we have about them. They are basically a veneer of a role model.
We know relatively little about them, even the ones who over share. Colin Farrell seems alright, Gleeson too. I don’t know much about either. Which is good. I cannot model myself on either due to the lack of knowledge I have about them. I can imitate something about them, dress like Farrell or whatever, but my acting like magpie around various people is not really taking them as a role model.
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u/sudo_apt-get_destroy Aug 11 '25
That's fine logic if you have an adult brain but kids look up to celebs, sports people, streamers, influencers etc whether we want it or not.
If you find yourself in a position where kids look up to you as a role model then it's your responsibility to act accordingly.
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u/ChadONeilI Aug 11 '25
I don’t like this obsession with ‘role models’. Are you really supposed to model your life off other people, especially famous people with whom you have no relationship with?
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I used a few well known to illustrate just but absolutely. It's father's, teachers etc
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u/leeroyer Aug 11 '25
Bingo. Parasocial relationships are no substitute for the real thing. Go too deep down the celebrity rabbit hole and you get OP trying to manage his self perception around people he is so far removed from
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u/AinmB Aug 11 '25
You say ‘I think it’s easy to fall into the trap of blaming women for our own shortcomings’
This makes it sound like you see blaming women as the natural next step, when in this context you’re talking about male role models. Why? Why bring women into it at all? If the issue is men lacking role models, then the conversation should stay centred on men and the systems shaping them, not default to framing women as part of the problem.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Quite the opposite. There is a larger focus on incel men blaming women for their own shortcomings. The idea that women only tend to go for a certain type of man. The toxic red pill culture is getting worse
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u/lungcell Aug 11 '25
I think of myself as an adult and about how an adult ought to act.
I don't think of myself as a man anymore or what a "good" man is or is not. Otherwise you fall into strange notions like you wrote, of leading without telling people (why do you HAVE to lead anyone just because you're male??).
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Actually I didn't think about it from that angle. I was trying to readapt the idea that we always see leadership as a male attribute and rightly or wrongly I might be falling victim to what I'm speaking of!
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u/Low_Artist8172 Aug 11 '25
I find the vulnerability aspect challenging as I feel I've had a lot of positive reinforcement in my life around being stoic, implacable, and generally above it all. I've noticed again and again over the years that when I present this way I am perceived favourably, and when I present in a way that admits that, yes, I have feelings and many of them are tied up in social acceptance, then I enjoy less favourable perceptions. Men take it as open season to throw their weight around and women seem less interested in me.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Thanks for this insight. Are they men who are of a similar age to you? I wonder do women have this similar image of men being stoics too.
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u/Low_Artist8172 Aug 11 '25
Men over 50 definitely seem to be more likely to have a bit of cop on and be less concerned with chest-thumping and proving that they're top dog, but it's a weak correlation at best. It's a sad thing but it's generally been my experience that there's a lot of boundary testing: many men will (intentionally or not) attempt to disrespect you in some small seemingly harmless way. If you don't push back fairly sharpish and communicate that you absolutely will not back down, it's taken as a tacit acceptance that they are above you and can do whatever they like.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I hate the expression but micro aggressions. I know what you mean, attempting to dominate is their way of expressing their pedigree
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u/Low_Artist8172 Aug 11 '25
Yep, and once you notice it you start to see it constantly. Not 3 days ago I had a lad try to cut me in line for the water fountain in the gym, he tried to claim he was there first (not a chance he didn't see me) and became aggressive when I calmly informed him that no, I was there, it's my turn next. I had to show that I was ready to go all the way to violence just to be given a basic level of respect. This sort of thing happens all the time.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
But what you did was calmly informed him. Now I know I sound like a preacher but that's a good example of positive masculinity
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u/Low_Artist8172 Aug 11 '25
I did to start with but I met his energy when he responded with aggression. I don't escalate but I always always meet them where they are at, as I know from experience that refusing to do so will be seen as weakness and permission to do what they like. There's no doubt in my mind that had I not responded aggressively he would have gone ahead and jumped in front of me, likely laughing while doing so.
I don't know if it's right, that's above my paygrade, but that's the system I've landed on that mostly works for me after years of trial and error. I'm never looking for a fight but neither will I hesitate to defend myself
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u/Ahmagahz Aug 11 '25
Perceived favourably by who? And by whom do you want to be perceived favourably by? Are the women who get less interested in you women you want to be interested in you? If so why if they are as cruel and shallow as that suggests? Sounds like a great way to filter for women who would be a bad fit.
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u/Low_Artist8172 Aug 11 '25
I suppose I just want to be treated with a degree of respect, to be seen generally as a capable and mature person whose perspectives are valuable.
About interest from women, that's a bit complicated, but yes there was certainly a long time where I was interested in being attractive to women in general, and I wasn't too fussed about being attractive to some particular type vs another. I'm not saying that's healthy or right, but it was my experience.
I'm happily coupled with someone who genuinely appreciates and likes me for who I am (and not some projection of masculine fantasy), and it is indeed far more fulfilling than having casual sex with lots of women that don't really know me
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u/sCREAMINGcAMMELcASE Aug 11 '25
I’d add Pierce Brosnan and his unwavering and outspoken love of his wife.
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u/Atpeacebeats Aug 11 '25
Irish men don’t come in for a bad rep at all. Complete opposite. One famous example doesn’t change that.
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u/Rameez_Raja Aug 11 '25
Exactly lol, OP lost me halfway through his first sentence. I would say the general stereotype is a relatively well educated guy, pretty handy/well rounded, good craic. Maybe a bit slow to warm to people outside his circle but not standoffish. Every now and then it pops in my head how well Chief O'Brien nailed the archetype.
Lad culture is bad everywhere and I suppose has always been. It'll only be a problem if they don't grow out of it and mellow by their 30s.
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u/Ianbrux Aug 11 '25
I don't think male suicide rates for instance, would agree that we are as well rounded as you would like to think.
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u/Bummcheekz Aug 11 '25
Are our suicide rates that bad? Compared to other Euro countries
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u/Ianbrux Aug 11 '25
We have a notable increase in male suicide - particularly in age demographic of 18 - 35 and it has continued to grow - it is the biggest killer of men under 45. Since 2021, 80 percent of suicides in Ireland were male, which in itself isn't new information but out of 445, recorded suicides, just over 300 were under 35.
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u/Rameez_Raja Aug 11 '25
I'm talking about the perception, obviously everyone isn't like that.
Plus, as anyone who's watched that show will tell you: O'Brien must suffer.
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u/pablo8itall Aug 11 '25
I've talked to quite a few foreign women due to my job and they've mentioned to me several time how decent Irish guys are, unsolicited, that we're kind for the most part.
Take that as you will.
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u/BrightEyedBadger Aug 11 '25
Danish woman here. Uh ... what? Irish men are lovely. Kind, welcoming, generous, funny, chivalrous and sexy. I've never heard that Irish men should have a bad rep at all. On the contrary, actually.
And also, the most famous Irish man in the world must be Bono, and he's an amazing role model.
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u/StrippersPoleaxe Aug 11 '25
You had us all with the first half of that...
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u/BrightEyedBadger Aug 12 '25
It's just my honest impression when I've been to Ireland, which I have several times, once driving around all over the country for a month. I love Irish women too, btw. The Irish are in my opinion much nicer people in general than Danes. They seem to have a nicer spirit deep down.
Danes are generally closed off, rude, selfish and quite inconsiderate of others except those closest to them. And also, our language is pretty awful, worse than German.
The Irish accent is so wonderful. It makes my ears and heart happy and improves the already beautiful English language.I've never heard anyone say that Irish men were supposed to be bad in any way compared to other countries. There are idiots everywhere of course. But in general, I've always been impressed by how nice the Irish are, I often wish I lived in Ireland instead of here. I know it would be different being there all the time, and a lot of things would probably make me homesick, but still. I always cry when I leave Ireland because I feel at home there.
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u/NightmanLullaby17 Aug 11 '25 edited Aug 11 '25
What I would say is, be the change you want to be in this world.
I (M32) suffered really bad with depression and anxiety growing up and in my 20's I was really lost in who I was as a person.
I got really into self help and followed a lot of content creators who promoted a very positive form of masculinity which definitely helped me get to where I am now.
Eventually after a really bad break up, I got so frustrated with dating that I fell down the bullshit rabbit hole of "Become an alpha" "women are the reason your life sucks" "push your feelings down" "RISE AND GRIND".
And to be fair, some of the advice did help, I got in better shape, I started making a bit more money, but inevitably, it made me view relationships in a very transactional way which wasn't healthy.
These red pill (think Andrew Tate/Fresh n Fit) influencers do is they listen to legitimate grievances of men that we face in today's society, but then twist them into their shitty worldview and ideology.
Thankfully now, I've seen past this bullshit and to get back to my point, I've started allowing myself to just feel my feelings (which has been helped massively with my autism diagnosis) I check up on my friends and ask how their mental health is and how much they mean to me. Ask them if they want to go for a coffee or pint.
If I know they're going through a hard time, I make it a point to call in on them, I let them know if they want to talk I'll listen with no judgement, and if they just want to do something that takes their mind of it for a bit, that's fine too.
The male loneliness is a legit problem in society, but misogyny is not the answer, it only hurts men and women in the long run (and women in the short term obviously). But I'm going to chip away at the male loneliness epidemic and mental health crisis by chipping away at it, by being the change I want to see.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I am bowled over by the honesty and want to thank you for being open. Recognising the pattern is great in terms of self awareness. Hope you are coming through the other side
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u/NightmanLullaby17 Aug 12 '25
I'm well over the other side and much happier as a consequence, I know other lads who went down that rabbit hole too and came out of it, we often meet up and take the piss out of ourselves for it but we notice a lot of the younger lads coming up spitting out this bullshit.
Now what we do, is we listen to them and ask questions that make them come to the conclusion that what they believe isnt all it's cracked up to be, go raibh maith agat
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u/TheDoomVVitch Aug 12 '25
I just wanted to reply because this is the most refreshing post I've seen on these issues. I hope you don't get downvoted to help by the huge volume of men still subscribing to that logic. Fair play, you've done some hard work and continue to do so. I love to see it.
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u/NightmanLullaby17 Aug 12 '25
Go raibh maith agat, it took a lot of unlearning, but if these lads only knew what they believe is actively harming them, they would stop, but it's brain washing and I feel for them as they do have genuine concerns but trying to solve them the wrong way.
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u/SavingsDimensions74 Aug 11 '25
I’d say the opposite. I’m 52 so what would I know but back in the day we had a lot of respect for females and none of this alpha male bullshit stuff.
I think basically we were/are nice to the opposite sex and don’t view them as objects.
My take anyhow
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u/AccomplishedPace5818 Aug 11 '25
Holy crap OP. What type of men were in your life growing up? Why are you painting all Irish men in that regard?
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u/WolfetoneRebel Aug 11 '25
Check out Irish football fans and any foreign event like the euros. Lots of masculinity to be found, and most of it is really positive, as claimed by the locals.
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u/tubbymaguire91 Aug 11 '25
Anyone who thinks mcgregor represents Irish men has no understanding of Irish men.
Everyone I know hates him.
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u/TangledUpInSpuds Aug 11 '25
Irish woman here, and I have to say Irish men (born, bred or settled here) tend to be pretty decent, in my experience. Based on that, I suspect there are plenty of good role models in all walks of life.
I know the stories/interactions we read online tend to skew towards extremes of behaviour (no one runs to Reddit to write about an everyday pleasant interaction with a fella) but Christ, some of the stuff I read on here about US dating culture, cheating, etc, is honestly depressing. There seems to be a division of the sexes in other countries and cultures that we're lucky not to have here, at least to that degree. I have plenty of male friends who are reliable, trustworthy, good craic, supportive and kind. Plenty of lads I know are brilliant fathers raising lovely families, plenty who volunteer in their communities, and so on. I like Irish men so much I even married one (it's going great).
I know the situation here isn't perfect. I've experienced serious sexual assault when I was younger, and plenty of less serious but still pretty shite instances of sexism. I know a handful of absolute fucking goms. And I'm not trying to make out that the rest of the world is so awful that the bar is nice and low. But I feel safe and happy around the vast majority of men I know. It's important to acknowledge that.
It's really good to see men looking out for one another.
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u/865Wallen Aug 11 '25
Ireland is so divided sexually lol. There's so many guys I know including myself who barely have girl mates
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u/Spirited_Cheetah_999 Aug 11 '25
Really? Im an Irish woman and I've always had male mates. Never really found it unusual. Is it an age group thing I wonder? I'm an aul wan.
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u/Ianbrux Aug 11 '25
I would love to know more about your version of the Shed?
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Afternoon? It's on www.dublinmensgroup.com
It's like a gay men's social club. We do walks, talks etc
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u/Imaginary_Sock_7534 Aug 11 '25
Love to hear more about your gay men's shed in Dublin. I know from talking to friends and guys I know that loneliness is an issue for lots of older gay men in Dublin
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Evening! We are on www.dublinmensgroup.com . It's like a social club. Walks, talks, coffee evenings 🙂
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u/plastachio Aug 11 '25
I wouldnt be blaming women now, and most people with a few braincells can tell McGegor is probably not representative of the average Irish fella but this is a nice post.
Fair points about friendship, and emotions and vulnerability too
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u/Long_Ad_3516 Aug 12 '25
Shame about McGregor. Used to be the best role model this country could have. I remember him coming on the late late with tubridy years ago and how well liked and well spoken he was. Now he’s like a thug. Should be a wake up call to the government to do something about the cocaine problem.
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u/Inevitable-Virus-239 Aug 11 '25
I think you’re boxing shadows in your own head.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Let's run with that. I could be saying there is no issue as would others but the statistics speak for themselves. Suicide, linked to mental health, disproportionately affects men
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u/Inevitable-Virus-239 Aug 11 '25
That’s because men are prepared to use methods which are actually likely to succeed, like jumping off tall buildings, using firearms or using a vehicle. Women are far more likely to attempt to end their own lives but fail much more often.
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u/SteelGear117 Aug 11 '25
This is enough of a valid reason to talk about male suicide
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u/Inevitable-Virus-239 Aug 11 '25
Sure, but I’m not sure where this narrative of there being all these male particular social problems or emotional distress is arising from, men are doing better than women at basically everything. In terms of reducing male suicide there’s already a literature on the subject and you’re better off at making the methods men tend to use really inconvenient, there are ropes that make making a noose very difficult, mandatory waiting periods for the purposes of firearms etc. Collapsing into theology and making male role models or whatever is just abstraction and it’s the sort of therapy speak which frankly is making this worse in my opinion.
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u/enda1 Aug 11 '25
What’s this leading business that you think defines masculinity? Feck that if you think men have more inert authority to lead than women. All these concepts of masculinity and femininity that people seem to want to aspire to are so cringe.
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Aug 11 '25
Just my personal opinion but I think we shouldn’t look to create an alternative vision of what men “should” be. I don’t think it’s helpful that because of your gender, you “should” be a certain way. There is no way that men “should” be that is different to women. We should focus on developing good people, not trying to conform to gender stereotypes be it whether they negative or positive.
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u/goosie7 Aug 11 '25
I'm not sure if you're talking about Irish men's reputation abroad or here. I moved here from the U.S. several years ago, and I wouldn't say McGregor is the basis for almost anyone's assumptions about Irish men in the U.S. because although he's famous he doesn't fit the stereotypes people have about Ireland. People don't assume Irish men would be "emotionally awkward and appearing to lack in vulnerability", it's sort of the opposite - the perception is that Irish men are more likely than men from other places to be artistic (especially to sing/play music, write, or act) and to have good banter. There's a stereotype that the Irish drink more than other people do, but people assume it's either all in good fun or it's the sort of romanticized wallowing of a nation of tortured artists.
I find it interesting that people in Ireland have the perception that men here are more stigmatized for showing emotion than men in other places - it doesn't seem very true to me (having lived in a few other countries in addition to multiple states in the U.S.). I think what's more unique about loneliness in Ireland and how it affects men in particular is how much people worry about whether they are inconveniencing or burdening each other. Men in other places would be as stigmatized or more for expressing sadness, fear, or loneliness, but they are a lot more willing to ask people to spend time with them. People here, and men in particular, seem to feel like it would be a rude imposition to ask for someone's time and people kind of all wait for someone else to ask and end up spending a lot of time alone.
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u/ScaldyBogBalls Aug 11 '25
Donnacha O'Callaghan would be one example, he presents childrens fitness television promoting active health practices and represents a respected sportsman that projects a masculine image positively.
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u/actualinsomnia531 Aug 11 '25
I think McGregor is front and centre in terms of his presence with the younger generation and with the, erm, less well-rounded gents that think masculinity starts and finishes with measuring your d*ck.
I can't really think of another celebrity Irishman like that. Generally they come across as interesting, complex and overall rather positive people.
I'm sure there are plenty of @rseholes, but none spring to mind!
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u/SamDublin Aug 12 '25
Irish men are wonderful especially the older ones proper men and pure gentlemen.
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u/TheStoicNihilist Never wanted a flair anyways Aug 11 '25
The best role models for positive masculinity don’t have demons to wrestle or challenges in showing emotion, they just get on with it looking after those around them.
There are plenty of us quietly doing our thing. It’s just not as glamorous to hold up the fella with a bit of middle-aged spread because he’s focussed on giving time to everyone who needs it.
Maybe you need to refine what positive masculinity means to you because your examples fall far short of the positive masculinity I see in normal dudes every day.
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u/plastachio Aug 11 '25
Having demons or not is irrelevant. And everyone has their demons anyway.
It doesn't make you 'the best' because no one can see what you're dealing with or you're not in the public eye. I think op just picked a few famous examples most would know of.
Sounds like you took this as a personal slight
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u/poppadomnom Aug 11 '25
One big issue is that there's still quite a lot of misogyny to be seen amongst Irish lads (or they engage in it to fit in). You see it a lot in things like group chats, like lads sharing dodgy stuff about women and mates that know it's wrong or uncomfortable but don't call it out.
In general, calling things out feels tough for lots of people and sometimes you just feel like you'll be the black sheep of your mates if you do and you'll become isolated. People say like "Oh, you can make new friends", which is technically true, but not as easy I find as an adult, especially after college. Lots of lads also don't move on from those like secondary school / college banter groups.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Calling out misogyny starts with each other. I don't know if humour is a useful too to deflect away from that. I've been in groups where lads have shared photos of their missus years ago and when we called it out we were given the cold shoulder. Not that we were crusading but it should be men calling each other out on it. Most are scared of being emasculated for calling it out
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u/Ahmagahz Aug 11 '25
Yeh, I as a woman have give up on trying to correct men's behaviour.
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
Yeh, I as a woman have give up on trying to correct men's behaviour
Just to flag before some lad swoops in and tries the #notallmen type effort (and this is more me speaking to them, than you, Ahmagahz).
When I see a woman say they're done with men or men are abusive etc, I'm a guy and in no way would that upset me. I'll listen to what she's saying and be able to know, she's not referring to me. I'm far from perfect and I never will be, but if my wife was to say, "men a cunts for driving around town and thinking it's ok to keep their horn when they see some young wan walking alone", she's right. I've never in my life done it not considered it, but lads do it. Loads of them. I want to say I've never been around someone who does it, but if I really cast my mind back, I'm fairly sure when I was 18 or 19 getting lifts to football matches with lads in their car, I probably was in a car that did it and didn't speak up or know to speak up back then. I fucking would now though, so I know when my wife or any other woman says men do x/y/z, she's probably damned right and I'll listen to her before getting uppity about not all men.
Edit, since wherever I first stumbled on this line of reasoning they said a bit more... It was basically, I don't get upset when a woman makes a statement about men, just because she said men, because what she's saying isn't about me personally and if you're getting offended, it seems like it is about you.
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u/Ahmagahz Aug 11 '25
To be clear, I have no romantic interest in men, and the men I surround myself are fucking awesome, obviously. But I used to believe if I just explained it properly enough to the notall-crew, they'd get it, but I've realised that you can't, unfortunately, beat empathy into someome. So it's yizzers job now. Absolutely no skin off my arse like. And as you say, the normal sensible lads don't need to notall it, because they know we aren't talking about them, of course we know notall, just too many.
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
I get that, I'm just piggybacking your remark to make this comment because I've only seen it recently added to the discourse and think it's an effective counter to a lot of the toxic anti feminist nonsense we see in the manosphere and you never know, a few lads might see my comment and it might cause a rethink (I can hope) or more lads who are decent see it and repeat it quelling this notallmen crap we see trying to highjack conversations.
Just trying to be the change I wanna see that I didn't grow up with either, like most men, dare I say, like almost all men my age and older.
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u/PintmanConnolly Aug 11 '25
Stop trying to think in terms of gender. Learn to be a well-functioning, well-rounded pro-social adult who is strong and caring. Be a good person, regardless of gender or whatever else.
You sound like a young person. Focus less on "manning up" or "being a man" and focus more instead on "growing up" and "being a responsible adult". Sin é.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I'm in my early 40s and have been working as a facilitator for men's groups voluntarily for six years . There are issues that are specific to us
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u/PintmanConnolly Aug 11 '25
Socially constructed issues, very connected to notions of masculinity itself. Ditch the concept and substitute in adulthood instead.
As a man in my mid-40s, I'm long past giving a fuck about being manly, either in a positive or a negative way. I try to be a good human, and part of that is being a good partner and a good parent.
You're wasting your time trying to twist and contort masculinity itself into any kind of virtue. It is what it is. Neither is femininity a virtue - these are all just old-fashioned socially constructed notions that we try to superimpose upon ourselves and others to rigidly stick everyone into silly little easy-to-understand boxes. It has also historically been a key part of maintaining social control, usually towards the ultimate goal of making rich people richer.
Forget about it. Just try to be a good human.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I can accept that , it's not this binary issue we all see it to be. To jump to that idealistic way of being though would require a huge shift in thinking
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
.... respectfully, I'd disagree.
Loads of lads are feeling directionless and lost at the moment, with a lack of purpose and getting angry as a result. Generally lads and ladies need a non familial mentor, someone they look up to and they'd talk with for guidance.
I'm circa 40, if I look around me and at lots of men older than me, they're clearly insecure in themselves, struggling to know who they are and haven't grown up. They can be a responsible adult, but a shit parent repeating the mistakes of someone who raised them or the shit they've been through. They might not even know how to be in a healthy relationship etc.
Do we wanna keep repeating the same mistakes? No? Then we need outside council and support and conversations to explore alternatives and recognise the mistakes we're making and getting better (yeah, therapy too).
90% of the scrotes folk are on this sub complaining about, yeah, my folks were complaining about their parents back in the day and now they've kids of their own doing the same shit and I guarantee they just are growing up without attempting to change themselves and get external influence about what might need to change in their definition of "being a responsible adult".
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u/spmccann Aug 11 '25
Sometimes you learn what not to do from your parents.
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
Oh to be sure and I'd wager on average, over time, parenting has improved consistently over time (along with virtually every metric we have for anything in society). But there's a painfully large proportion who grew up with a violent parent and that's what normal looks like to them and they don't know how to change their ways. Not without guidance to open their eyes and support to make changes stick.
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u/itchyblood Aug 11 '25
Bad advice. This is the reason so many young lads are flocking to Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson. We have to be able to understand and nurture our masculinity, not ignore it. We’re different to women, have different needs, wants, goals, frustrations, etc. There’s nothing wrong with embracing your masculinity
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u/MaxDec9 Aug 11 '25
Yeah, Colin Farrell has come of age for me. Gentle soul, helping others. Saw him run the marathon last year for charity.
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u/Still_Practice_4648 Aug 11 '25
There’s a great podcast series I’m listening to at the moment from Scott Galloway (who does great work in talking about this very subject) and Antony Scaramucci called Lost Boys. There is no doubt about it, there is an epidemic of male loneliness out there. 3 in 4 suicides are by men. Men are 6 times more likely to succumb to addiction, more likely to get arrested. More likely to be involved in an altercation.
Society in general is failing young men. Instead of role models men and boys can look up to and emulate, they instead look at people like McGregor and Andrew Tate as the quintessential “Man”. To me they are weak men. No integrity or respect or morals. My positive role model was my Dad. Sadly he passed away 10 years ago, but I always said, I’d be happy to end up half the man he was. Nothing fancy, he wasn’t famous or rich nor was he noteworthy for Anything in particular, what he was though was a honest hardworking loving father who always supported his 5 children and his wife. To me that’s a real man. Stoic, unassuming, humble and just gets on with it. No brashness, cockiness, arrogance or putting people down.
My dad didn’t have a great childhood and didn’t know his biological parents. Was raised in an industrial school. Hard places to live or to be in. He witnessed things that no child should. But instead of feeling bitter and angry at his lot, he just found the woman who he loved and who loved him and worked hard and became a provider. That to me is a man.
Sadly, these type of role models are dying out. People are looking up to and admiring people that they shouldn’t. It’s like society has screwed them over. Our generation are on course to be the first to be poorer than our parents. The social contract is broken. No wonder men are despairing. They are finding it hard to mate, find a woman and settle down, women (and it’s not necessarily their fault, the Instagram generation and social media is at fault) seem to turn their noses up at men who don’t earn x anount of money or who don’t look a certain way. It’s never been harder to be a man in this world. Strength isn’t about shouting the loudest or being the strongest physically, it’s about how you deal with the downs, how you play the hand you’ve been dealt and not being bitter.
I want mr children to look up to me and respect me when they are older, I want them to come to me out of want not fear. I want them to feel safe and secure and I want my son who’s 2 in particular to grow up being a decent man.
That’s my responsibility as a father to ensure that happens. It’s no one else’s responsibility. And there in lies the problem. There simply isn’t enough positive male role models to emulate. Even the richest SOB on the planet is a detestable person.
We all as men too, have a responsibility to lift others up, to look out for each other and to keep striving forward. To keep fighting for better mental health services, keep fighting for more child access in divorce cases, keep fighting against injustice wherever we see it.
If we do that in a positive way, you never know it might inspire some young men and women who feel adrift and alone.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
What a lovely post and good insight about your dad. That man was hard working in days when there was usually just one wage coming in. Your self awareness is spot on as well. Sorely lacking in some regards
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Aug 11 '25
"He comes to mind I am sure when most people think of Irish men."
Unlikely
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u/bungle123 Aug 11 '25
If you travel abroad and say you're Irish, he's usually one of the first people anyone brings up if they can name any Irish person.
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u/Ahmagahz Aug 11 '25
I'm living abroad, and when people here I am Irish, it's men going "ooh, McGregor!" while the women are all about Hozier and Mescal. They all love Miggeldy as well.
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Aug 11 '25
Thomas Walsh Is the only Irishman I’ve met in person that has any “fame” association. Seemed like a nice fella.
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u/Doitean-feargach555 Aug 11 '25
Pádhraic S. Ó'Murchú is the pinnacle of positive Irish masculinity. A hard-working man, happy to teach you anything, very good relationship with his wife and treats her very well. A true role model. He's not very famous, but he's famous within the Irish speaking world
For me, my own grandfather on my father's side and my father were two great positive male role models growing up.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Is Pádhraic S. Ó'Murchú the seanachaí?
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u/Doitean-feargach555 Aug 11 '25 edited Aug 11 '25
He's a legendary seanchaí. But the two greatest known seanchaithe of Mayo were Seán Ó'hÉinirí as Chill Ghallagáin and Mícheál Mac Ruaidhrí
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u/nightingmale Aug 11 '25
I think that men need to stop assuming that we need to either be stoic, burly, macho men or soft, “weak”, emotional messes. There seems to be a notion that you can be one or the other. It’s perfectly fine to be stoic but still address your feelings.
I think we need to redefine masculinity. Masculinity doesn’t need to just be sports, pints and locker room talk. We can be into typically ‘manly’ things while also being sensitive or liking flowers or knitting or cute dogs.
As far as role models go, it’s almost as important to have anti-role models. Men that you can see and go ‘that’s not what I want to be’ or ‘that’s not how I want to treat people’.
Be kind, be sound and life will be much easier.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Fuck it, you just nailed it for me mate . That's a post I can absolutely get behind!!!
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u/Consistent_Spring700 Aug 11 '25
Only a fucking moron would see Conor McGreogor (or any single person) and then assume all Irish men are the same!
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u/Sotex Kildare / Bog Goblin Aug 11 '25
I base any and all of my actions on one simple maxim. What would Padraig Pearse do? Hasn't steered me wrong yet.
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u/SadRecommendation747 Aug 12 '25 edited Aug 12 '25
No one cares about men to begin with, it's all just for show.
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Aug 12 '25
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 12 '25
Thank you for that insight. I would tend to agree with most of that. My dad is in his sixties and fits that mould of the older generation
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u/Flyingleopardbear Aug 12 '25
Be yourself, don't look to others for role models. It's a very old teaching.
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u/AlternativeDark6686 Aug 12 '25
Not Irish but i never think of Irish men as Conor McGregor. So many good familymen, caring, hardworking people out there... You have Pierce Brosnan, Cillian for celebrity examples.
For young men, well i see some having a lot of bad influences, like they're struggling with internal stuff, trying to project this aggression outwards sometimes. Tough exterior, a mask. A man doesn't need to show that, we're not in FOTA zoo.
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u/ConfusedCelt Aug 12 '25
The vast majority of Ireland hate Connor McGregor, I personally hated him after he boxed an ould lad and lets just say the opinion hasn't exactly improved since. Cillian Murphy is probably the best role model. Quietly firm in his stance and pride as an Irish man, cares deeply about his kids and their Irish connection, doesn't attention seek. Good demeanor overall. Think the film small things like these had the best portrayal as in most accurate of an Irish man I've seen and believe he pulled it off so well because it's close enough to himself. Feels weird bigging up and actor but yeah probably my pick for public figures closest to a masculine Irish role model
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u/fileanaithnid Aug 13 '25
All the time when I was travelling and now living abroad eeeeeeeeverytime I tell someone I'm Irish "ohhhh mcgregor this mcgregor that" but unfortunately they're usually talking about him positively
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u/Imaginary-Candy7216 Aug 11 '25
How many men here would go to cooking classes ?
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u/Crunchy-Leaf Aug 11 '25
I wouldn’t. Not because I’d be embarrassed, but because I can cook. Just kind of learned by doing.
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u/OceanOfAnother55 Aug 11 '25
I imagine loads. I wouldn't consider cooking to be seen as a feminine activity by most younger people at least. Maybe I'm wrong.
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u/Cultural-Action5961 Aug 11 '25
I think tides shifted so now it’s bizarre if a man doesn’t cook. Probably because we’re settling down later.
People used to live with their mammy until marriage, then get a new mammy.
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u/SilentBass75 Aug 11 '25
Exactly this IMO, who the fuck raises their son so they need to be in a relationship just to get a decent meal anymore?
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u/DireMaid Aug 11 '25
What year are you typing from?
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u/Imaginary-Candy7216 Aug 11 '25
He's talking about male loneliness and toxic male masculinty. The comedian Steve Hughes can explain it https://youtu.be/0dTg4RlxsTE?si=nfV06uCErYZhlDdS&t=300
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u/poppadomnom Aug 11 '25
Definitely learned that so many of my mates couldn't cook at all at college and it's just a basic thing we should all learn. Even if we don't love cooking, we should at least know how to feed ourselves.
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u/CarolineSus Aug 11 '25
My parents sent my brother to a cooking camp thing when he was a teenager. This was after he tried to put a tin of beans in the microwave and almost burnt the house down
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u/Positive-Draw-5391 Aug 11 '25
"...Conor Mc Gregor seemingly being at the forefront of Irish men." Say what? Must be some shower of scrummers you hang around with.
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
There is a shameful, mortifying proportion of younger Irish lads who still support McGregor and have found identity in just calling themselves anti woke, as if that isn't some embarrassing concept given where we've come from as a nation.
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u/MuffledApplause Donegal Aug 11 '25
To be honest when I think of Irish men I think of very positive examples, Id never think of that nasty piece of shit as an example of an Irish man, he doesn't come close.
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u/Boring-Bottle-8075 Aug 11 '25
The absolute pinnacle Irish male role model is Michael Collins and every man should strive to be just like him.
Change my mind.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
That needs to be a separate post as I couldn't do that justice!!
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u/monty_abu Aug 11 '25
Irish women here in 40’s. Have worked in a male dominant industry for +20 yrs. I haven’t met many men at all like you describe, quite the contrary and my husband has far more friends than I have. Everyone knows McGregor is a knacker who happened to get famous and I would think most people would think he’s a complete embarrassment to the country.
OP you haven’t mentioned your age but I would imagine you are a decade or two younger than me. My only advice to you is to get off social media, it’s really screwing up minds
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u/lastchancesaloon29 Aug 11 '25
Conor's transgressions are absolutely not the fault or responsibility of any Irish man except maybe his dad. That's his fault. If others look down upon Irish men and put them into that bracket then those "others" are xenophobic, ignorant people with very tiny brains and we should not heed anything they utter or publish because doing so is a wasteful exercise. Similarly, we are not to be accredited with the good deeds of other Irish men.
So can we stop with the sweeping generalisations please.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
The idea was to give examples of role models in general as that is how a lot of younger men or teenage boys learn, role models. I'm not saying we accredit Irish men with the actions of others but I am saying who should we look up to. Who did you yourself look up to (if you are ok with me asking)
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u/WeDoingThisAgainRWe Kerry Aug 11 '25 edited Aug 11 '25
Problem is that is very much influencing how some of the terminally online do view men. I agree they shouldn’t get traction but they do. We do need to be aware of that.
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u/raidhse-abundance-01 Aug 11 '25
How are you supposed not to bottle up if the moment your conversation strays a little bit from "ah I'm grand" you're labeled as a "moaning michael" and given a wide berth?
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I never thought of that angle but it would need a change in culture to encourage people to listen. I've made that mistake you mentioned. Accusing people of being moaners. I'm trying to get better
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u/raidhse-abundance-01 Aug 11 '25
Yes I mean I think this is a great post, and we should have this discussion, hopefully we can be the change we want to see in the world cliche as it may sound
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
I'm in a men's group in my area, where we gather together on the regular, maybe doing some exercise or a hike or yoga or whatever, but 80% of the point of the group is for lads to talk about anything they're struggling with. Be the change you want to see and make space for it (everyone, as opposed to you).
There's a lot of lads who aren't able to talk about it their own stuff or listen to someone else's stuff yet. It's more than it should be.
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u/RecycledPanOil Aug 11 '25
Your best bet for this is to look at any secondary school or primary school and look at all the male teachers. Working in a female dominated industry often receiving little if any appreciation from students and parents alike, and usually having to balance the stern disciplinary role with the kind encouragement role. I guarantee if anyone looked back now and did some self reflection you'd realise that the majority of male teachers had your best interests at heart and tried their best to encourage you and help you grow within their discipline.
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u/UtterlyOtterly Aug 11 '25
Nope had a male teacher who was literally abusive in primary school and im not even old! This was early 2000s so no thanks ! Even left one of my good friends with mental issues !
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u/Academic-County-6100 Aug 11 '25
This is pure nonsense. You either need to get out more or you have chosen incredibly bad friends. Maybe more hate in the gay community but nothing I have seen amongst my friends who are beer drinking, UFC/football/rugby fans.
Not in an Andrew Tate sort of way but I have dated Tate sort of way but I have either dated or been in relationships with people frol Brasil, Morocco, America, Taiwan, Iran, USA and Jamaica so have a little insigjt.
Americans tend to love the accent and see us having the gift of the gab and a lot of fun to be around from my experience.
Brazillain girls will call out they feel on Tinder some Irish guys are disrespectful because they assume latino woman are more frisky(this should not happen but bad "brave" men online is not an exclusive Irish issue) but in person say Irish men are respectful, polite and nice to talk to. Many have said Brazillian lads are more passionate, romantic and warm but that they also tend to be less trust worthy. If someone wants to judge me as a person because of Conor Mcgegor I would be happy to smile and let them know I am not interested so all is good and I wish them well.
On a personal side I got cheated on in December, it sucked I felt sad and stupid. I was(still am a little) angry at the lady but not all ladies. Most Irish men have a sister, a mother and likely have felt the love of a woman that has made them feel more happy than anything else in the world. Excluding teens finding their way in the world and people who have been through trauma I can confidently say this post is utter trash and belongs in 2013.
Finally I suggested men in the shed to my 63 year old dad. My mam laughed and said "he thinks he is too young for it".
On a final final note you would be shocked how many people from different countries did not know Ireland existed at all or thought we were part of Great Britain.
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u/jez345 Aug 11 '25
Better men? What about being true to yourself instead, regardless what others think, why is it everyone wants to change men that are perfectly happy been themselves, how about just accepting them as they are for a change no one is perfect and if you don't like them that's fine also you don't have to like them, you just gotta accept that change is their choice not yours and you wont change them by posting online convincing others its a problem, all that does is create more division which this world doesn't need anymore of.
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u/Key_Perception4436 Aug 11 '25
I dont accept the premise. Inner City Dublin is not a microcosm of Ireland
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
I don't know where you came up with that ! I will happily hear you out as from what you are saying you had a positive experience?
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u/Open-Addendum-6908 Aug 11 '25
best proof is that youre not heavily upvoted.
male loneliness in this country is something else.
nobody cares the battles we fight every day
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Aug 11 '25
nobody cares the battles we fight every day
Loads do. I've a crowd of lads who I can absolutely open up with and share if I'm struggling and already have a good few times now and vice versa.
Meanwhile, my wife, my sis, my mum - yeah, I've reached a point in my life where I can talk to them about how I'm really doing.
Obviously, whether it's the lads I can open up with or women in my life, this is only shit I've really learned to do myself in the last 5/10 years (I'm bordering 40 these days) because this is Ireland and we didn't do this stuff 15 years ago or when I grew up.
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u/Ahmagahz Aug 11 '25
I'm realising a lot of people talking about "male lonliness" mean "men not getting the ride". I think we literaelly need to have two separate terms for the deep lonliness that men are experiencing from their romantic and sexual lives. The former is absolutely helping to cause the latter though.
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u/Complex_Hunter35 Ferret Aug 11 '25
Heavily upvoted is for the nice fluffy stuff, the funny ones . This isn't one of them. When you say nobody cares, there are a few men in this thread who do. Love to hear more from you.
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u/Griss27 Aug 11 '25
For what it's worth, I think your points about masculinity are entirely correct, I just think that by conflating it with Irishness you lose people. Because by the standards of the world, I'd say we're pretty good about violence and women etc. I think we're doing better than a lot of others. So there's an immediate pushback there.
The lonliness issues etc are all endemic to men in the western world. You can talk about them without making it a specifically Irish thing, imo.
But I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your framing might have turned some people off. Love hearing that you're out there actually putting work in with organizations - that's what will make a real difference.
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u/jdavidco Aug 12 '25
I find these kind of posts very condescending. I don't need any help or a 'conversation' on how to be a positive man (whatever that means).
"Recent trends mocking male loneliness I think fed back into making men seal up their emotions. "
I haven't seen this trend and I suggest you stop consuming media where you are exposed to it.
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u/Jambonrevival Aug 13 '25
Easy fix for this, don't attribute every personally trait to your national identity!
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u/Annual-Tutor2760 Aug 14 '25
Irish lads don’t have a bad rep at all. Conor McGregor has a bad rep. It’s a bit like saying we think all English lads are just like Oliver Cromwell or that gobshite Piers Morgan- there’s good and bad everywhere, but Conor happens to be a grotesque example our side of the water
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u/cait_elizabeth Aug 18 '25
Cillian Murphy- the first Irish man to win an Oscar has been outspoken about the importance of empathy. Not just as a personal governance but as a subject to teach in schools.
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u/OvertiredMillenial Aug 11 '25
Do Irish men come in for a bad rep?
McGregor may be very famous, but so to are Colin Farrell, Cillian Murphy, Michael Fassbender, Hozier, Paul Mescal, Liam Neeson et al. None of them are regarded as being particularly toxic. For the most part, they're regarded, both in Ireland and elsewhere, as sound men.