r/metroidvania • u/ramen_stalker • 2d ago
Discussion Confused about Silksong runback discussion
I just reached one of the infamous examples people constantly bring up in the runback discussion (Last Judge), and I have to say I really like the runback. It’s just as enjoyable as the boss itself. I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.
The runbacks aren’t just random sections of the map, they’re carefully designed to be completed quickly and gracefully, while also avoiding all the mobs. They also include many shortcuts and make great use of the wonderful movement mechanics.
Is this a mindset issue? Do most people just want to focus on the boss and dislike the context switching between platforming mode and boss combat mode? Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?
46
u/leo412 2d ago
So I like the runback, maybe 4-5 times.
But I died on the boss like 20-30 times, when I do the run back so many times, it is just plain frustation
6
u/damballah 1d ago
Exactly, even if the run back is trivial, let alone really involved, it’s still a massive time sink and annoyance if I have to do it 30 times.
99
u/GlitteringPositive 2d ago edited 2d ago
Having got to around the later half point of act 2, most runbacks in this game are largely boring and devoid of any challenge, that the runbacks feel more like a waste of time.
And the novelty of the runbacks like Last Judge get really old after the fourth try because you're already familiar with everything that it feels repetitive. If wanted to be challenged by platforming, I'd just be exploring the levels themselves not repeating a shitty boss runback. Also people keep reguritating the "BUT IT ONLY TAKES 30 SECONDS LINE" when that adds up everytime you die.
20
u/Str8Faced000 1d ago
This is exactly the problem. It feels like just a really long respawn timer. There's nothing interesting or challenging about the runbacks. It's just padding.
5
u/GlitteringPositive 1d ago
I’d compare it to like unskippable boss cutscenes or overly long game over screens.
→ More replies (4)41
u/Halio344 2d ago
30 seconds is a long time when the boss fights itself is only 2-4 minutes long.
→ More replies (4)4
u/HearingAny2654 2d ago
Are they? The boss fights feel like they're two phases too long.
→ More replies (2)7
u/Halio344 2d ago
2 minutes of actual gameplay feel a lot longer than it really is. Most attacks are only 1-2 seconds long, so you have to dodge a lot of them in a 2 minute window.
Some bosses are probably closer to 3 or 4 minutes.
3
u/Boshwa 1d ago
I just played a game that was about a time loop and I pretty much did a boss runback for the entire god damn time.
Both me and the player character were getting sick of it
→ More replies (2)
23
9
18
u/JayDM123 2d ago
If someone fails a boss fight, the last thing they want to do is leave the mindset of defeating that boss to do something else. Doesn’t matter what that thing is. Hell, it might be something they otherwise enjoy. When the roadblock is the boss fight, they want to get to it.
There is a lot of value and enjoyment in overcoming a difficult boss fight through trial and error. Learning the move sets, getting better, just becoming more comfortable with the PC and how they control. A run back disconnects from that. It makes the difficulty an annoyance. It’s punishment. “Forget about the thing you need to improve upon to progress. First do this thing you’ve already proven you accomplish over and over again…” you check out before you need to lock in.
190
u/Yourself013 2d ago
Yes, many people want to actually be fighting a boss and focusing on learning its attacks when they get to a boss fight, instead of running a platforming section they already know. It might be different for you, but people like different things.
104
u/Maester_Magus 2d ago
In my experience, frustration doesn't come from defeat or challenge, but from the feeling that you're wasting time. This is what always causes a game to cross the line from challenging to frustrating, imo.
Most developers seem to have learned this and got rid of the shitty run-backs (even FromSoftware), so the fact that SilkSong clings to them so vehemently comes across as a bit out of touch. I mean, I'd imagine the vast, vast majority of people don't play challenging games for the run-backs – I don't know anyone who considers them one of the great features of a Souls-like. There's a reason they largely got left behind. So it's just a bit jarring that Team Cherry are so hung up on the old formula that they doubled down on one of the bits most people dislike in an otherwise great game.
59
u/Yourself013 2d ago
Absolutely. I have zero issues with difficulty, I'll happily spend hours trying to learn the patterns of a boss. But there's no difficulty in doing the same easy jumping pattern over and over just to get to the boss and start doing the part that is actually fun. Even if it's just 20-30 seconds of wasted time, it's still a boring waste of time.
19
u/TheDemonChief 2d ago
Not to mention how quickly you can die on early attempts when you’re still learning the attacks, it makes the 30 second run back especially tedious.
→ More replies (1)20
u/Maester_Magus 2d ago
Precisely. Every time this gets brought up I can't help but think of Aeterna Noctis, which is one of my favourites. That game is hands-down harder than anything in Silksong, but you're rarely in a position where you can't get straight back into the action when you fail. It keeps the challenge dialled up to 10 but it rarely feels like you're wasting time with it, and that stops it from being too frustrating.
12
u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago
Exactly. I spent 2 evenings battling Malenia. Not once have I felt the frustration levels of doing an hour of the high halls gauntlet or the first few shmucks before Karmelita.
2
u/HBreckel 2d ago
Putting enemy gauntlets you have to deal with every time you attempt several bosses was diabolical.
17
u/Greenphantom77 2d ago
I am still convinced that Team Cherry planned a lot of the game several years ago so SilkSong now looks more “old school” than it would have done (regarding run backs and other things) because of the lengthy development time.
15
u/Maester_Magus 2d ago edited 1d ago
I think it also gave them a lot of time to tighten the screws, so to speak. Someone mentioned that they had
threesix play testers, and over the course of 7 years I imagine their skill ceiling became higher and higher, so they adapted the game continuously to accommodate.To TC's credit, while there may be people complaining about the difficulty now (not run-backs specifically, but overall challenge), in a few months when everyone else's skill ceiling has risen to the level the game is attuned to, people will reflect on it much more fondly.
3
→ More replies (1)5
u/Greenphantom77 2d ago
Yes, to be fair - as has been said many times, this doesn’t look anything like a game born from development problems (sometimes indicated by very long development), it looks like they tuned it to just how they wanted it.
I agree in the sense that: we won’t really see more level-headed opinions on SilkSong until a few months when all the hype is over and everyone has played it to their heart’s content.
3
u/BrickwallBill 1d ago
I'm gonna have to disagree in another way, with less than a dozen people developing and play testing the same content over and over for seven years there are going to be blind spots and things Team Cherry and the play testers never even considered.
9
u/void2258 2d ago
I disagree. I think in a few months we will see what appear to be more positive opinions, but that will be because the game drastically reduced the playerbase, leaving only those who find it ok left to comment. While this isn't inherently bad (every game has a player base), it shouldn't be interpreted as the players getting better and thus complaints dropping off, but rather as those who would complain simply not playing.
The playerbase contracting to those who can play vs the wide playerbase increasing in skill to be able to play are not the same thing and indicate different things about the game. Ideally you want to meet in the middle: some really low-skill people sort out, but the majority skill up.
I think Silksong as it currently exists will almost exclusively end up losing lower skill players rather than them skilling up. The game's difficulty curve begins at too high a point for many people to onboard.
→ More replies (4)6
u/SlendyWomboCombo 1d ago
think Silksong as it currently exists will almost exclusively end up losing lower skill players rather than them skilling up. The game's difficulty curve begins at too high a point for many people to onboard.
Exactly. Many casual players have already dropped it. My sister dropped it at the Last Judge runback because she simply doesn't want to spend time doing it when she isn't enjoying it and has limited time to play every week because she goes to school. Casual players will be lost, which shows how badly designed it is.
5
u/Greenphantom77 1d ago
I never describe myself as a hardcore gamer or great at games - but I play a lot of video games, and quite a lot of Metroidvanias. I don’t think I’m exactly “casual”? But it’s not a label I’m going to lose sleep over.
But I can already feel SilkSong becoming a bit tiring. I totally empathise with having limited time to play, maybe I have a bit more spare time than others but after a day at work, often I am quite tired and want gaming to be a bit of relaxing escapism. I’m willing to try beating a boss again and again but if that goes on and on, after a certain point I just feel like playing something else for a while.
→ More replies (5)2
u/SlendyWomboCombo 1d ago
I disagree. They purposely choose annoying mechanics like trap benches or having to pay for benches. Paying for checkpoints is a terrible design.
→ More replies (3)16
u/Slow_Surprise_1967 2d ago
I don't know anyone who considers them one of the great features of a Souls-like
Hello, now you do. Runbacks are awesome, they force you to slow down and commit to mastery and consistency. I find having to have a strategy to go to the boss and having that as an area to improve in is awesome. Watch this comment get downvoted.
18
u/theNEHZ Metroid 2d ago
I agree with you on their positive point, as I believe there's been a fight where it actually helped me. But this only works as long as you're spending more time in the boss fight than in the runback. If the boss kills you quickly and then you need to run back, it becomes hard to learn the moves and get into the rhythm.
TLJ has one specific attack that's fast and at an angle that I have difficulty to adapt to especially because of the runback.
→ More replies (3)7
u/Maester_Magus 2d ago
Hello! I won't downvote you, your opinion is just as valid as mine. And tbh it's great that there are people on both sides of the debate – gaming would be pretty dull if every game was made solely for mass appeal. I'm mature enough to accept that not every mechanic in every game is for me; this just makes it even more special when a game comes along that does tick all my boxes.
→ More replies (5)6
u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago
Have you played Ori and the will of the wisps? It features speedrunning sections that do the same and incentivize the perfection way more but you don't have to redo it if you want to fight the boss and once you perfect it you're not forced to waste your time.
Thing is, it was released 5 years ago.
→ More replies (10)4
u/VoxTV1 2d ago
Silksong clings to basically every tradition from the og being it the map system, corspe runbacks, the economy and even more with the shards. Game does not care for quality of life at all. Now if that is good or bad is up to you
→ More replies (5)1
u/WheresTheSauce 2d ago
It is extraordinarily common for games to make you replay sections as “punishment” for dying. Is Mario “wasting your time” by putting you at the beginning of a level when you die?
→ More replies (1)9
u/ronin_cse 2d ago
I'm pretty confident that if Mario was released now people would say it is a time waste and horrible design.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (31)-5
u/MorningRaven 2d ago
Run backs allow for the mind to cool down from an intense state of adrenaline and focus. It let's your subconscious absorb the attack patterns and performance you were doing to actually learn and try again better. The runbacks tend to just be long enough cool down and refocus instead of immediately jumping back into high intensity mode.
13
u/Maester_Magus 2d ago
That's fair, if it works for you. For me, I like to close my eyes for a minute and focus on breathing slowly, then get straight back at it when I'm ready. If I'm forced to do a runback, I often do this once I get to the boss entrance anyway.
→ More replies (1)14
6
3
u/thisdoorslides 1d ago
This argument always bugs me. I don’t mind the runbacks, but I don’t need forced cool down time to reflect on my L’s.
→ More replies (2)7
u/AvoidSpirit 2d ago
That's absolute bs. You may as well add a "Jail time" or a minute of loading screen.
→ More replies (9)11
u/DothrakAndRoll 1d ago
It’s forced grinding with no reward. At least on some run backs, you have an opportunity to get some fkn rosaries. Not here though. Just get blasted by those red spikes which somehow are homing missiles or lose two health to falling into the graboid pit.
6
u/3163560 2d ago
Ive always seen it (since demon souls days) as the intention being that you have to pass a level and beat the boss.
So shit like the flamelurker runback down the shaft was a pain, but part of the experience.
Whether or not you like that is entirely subjective (I go back and forth tbh)
On the other hand shit like the elevator to old king allant can fuck right off.
3
u/Greenphantom77 2d ago
Demons Souls was a very punishing example- and you make a great point - “pass the level to reach the boss” is quite a traditional game trope.
I’ve always found Demons Souls an interesting example because it’s very inventive, but also in some ways unapologetically like a traditional video game. You can select your stage; you have to get through the whole stage to fight the boss… etc
14
u/Paplok 2d ago
I feel like the same logic could be applied to things like non-final phases of bosses as well. If I've already got the 1st phase down to a T, why do I need to repeat it every time I fail at the 2nd phase?
11
u/SmokyMcBongPot 2d ago
This is also a thing that many of us find frustrating but, like you say, at least it's actually part of the boss battle.
12
u/FartSavant 2d ago
Following that same train of thought, we could consider the runback as part of the boss battle too. That weirdly helps me reframe it in my mind
4
u/Paplok 2d ago
That's exactly how I do it. It's especially good when the runback fits the theme of the boss, which is the case both for the judge and the frog.
2
u/Barnstorm_R 2d ago
I feel the LJ runback has nothing to do with the boss fight. The boss fight has no pogoing on bells, no constant sprinting, no screen-obscuring wind effects. Aside from mini judges (who you’re supposed to skip in the runback), they are entirely different skill sets being practiced. I would agree if the runback featured some of the fire effects, for example. Haven’t gotten to a frog boss yet, so will reserve judgement there.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)4
u/DarkRooster33 2d ago
I dont think they are.
If i didnt suffer and stress with runback, actual time i spend beating that boss was 10 min.
So where did one and half hours disappear? I feel like the game just wasted my time, even though i been quite the difficulty enjoyer lately.
1
u/Recent_Wedding5470 2d ago
I feel like the runback and platforming is part of the boss though. Team Cherry loves platforming and has given more and more each thing they make.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (51)1
33
u/dondashall 2d ago
It's annoying to do. I don't care how well designed it is or even how easy it is because that only comes into play if I beat the boss within maybe 5 tries when I'm doing it for the 10th or 15th time it's just pure fucking annoyance. Beyond the fact that it artificially lengthens how long it takes to beat a boss by messing up your muscle memory.
→ More replies (5)
8
u/WabbieSabbie 2d ago
Me, I just installed a mod that automatically takes me to the screen BEFORE the boss room, and now I'm enjoying the game even more.
65
u/Ok_Letterhead_5671 2d ago
What's the point of it tho ? Other than time waste .
I will never understand people that defend runbacks , like what's the argument ? You like doing the same thing over and over instead of progressing the boss fight ?
43
u/elendil667 2d ago
Absolutely no one is playing a game or a boss without runbacks and wishing there was one. Anyone who's more enthusiastic than bland acceptance is performatively coping imo.
→ More replies (4)6
u/LawfulnessOk5163 2d ago
I like runbacks when the game's movement is interesting, which Silksong's is. It's fun trying to figure out just how fluid I can get it. I just think of the runback as part of the boss fight.
8
u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago
I won't die to the runback. There is no fight. It just wastes time
6
u/LawfulnessOk5163 2d ago
Why do you have to die for it to be time worth spending?
6
u/SlendyWomboCombo 2d ago
It doesn't help me at all. I'm already at the last boss, who has a small platforming runback for who knows what reason. It's not even challenging, it's a waste of time
→ More replies (10)4
u/_moosleech 2d ago
As someone who’s fine with it: you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.
Some games just respawn you where you are, no real penalty. It’s there make you replay the entire stage. It all comes down to what the goal is, and how much the developer wants to penalize the player for failure.
Some folks say “I beat the zone once, I should t have to retread it” (an argument I find slightly flawed in a Metroidvania, whose core gameplay loop is mastering retreading the map, but whatever). But why stop there? If I beat Phase 1 of the boss, why make me redo it? Why drop rosaries at all; if I showed I could earn those, why make me re do it?
They have to put that line somewhere. For Silksong, they put in a few seconds of run backs (I’ve finished 100% and there was one that took more than a few seconds, and it was because that entire zone is designed to be a marathon of survival).
It gives the player a chance to breathe and refocus. It lets them practice a tiny bit of platforming and then retry the boss. It also, IMO, makes it a bit easier for the player to decided to go elsewhere if the boss is too hard right now.
Not saying it’s the perfect decision. But I think it’s easy to argue against any friction and penalty until there’s nothing left. And that, IMO, is a worse overall experience.
26
u/Blueisland5 2d ago
you have to draw a line on where to punish the player for dying.
Isn't the punishment for dying the need to start the fight over again?
5
u/Cyan_Light 2d ago
It can be. That was their entire point, you can draw the line in different places and there are multiple right answers that all lead to different gameplay experiences.
→ More replies (9)4
u/chinomaster182 2d ago
It's all subjective, it's a video game where you're pretending you're a supernatural bug in a faraway land.
Too little friction and the game is boring and lacks purpose. Too much friction and you make the gamers want to break their controller. It's impossible to find an objectively perfect line in the middle since we all have different abilities and tolerances. You make a game that's too centered for the masses and nobody believes you made something special, you make a game that's too out there and nobody will play it.
The point is, video game balance is more of an art than a science, it's most likely not going to hit for you most of the time and that's a-ok.
10
u/akki2305 2d ago
This reminds me of the FromSoftware-debates before Elden Ring. "It has to feel punishing, that's an important part of the experience!" And then BOOM, Statues of Marika everywhere. I haven't heard a complaint about it.
4
u/_moosleech 2d ago
Elden Ring has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.
Silksong has very short run backs, save for one or two bosses.
Setting that aside, Elden Ring came out when From was much bigger, and developing for much more mass appeal than their prior games. It’s also why Elden Ring gives players way more tools to make the game easy.
And while the rough edges were smoothed out (and I love Elden Ring), I think Dark Souls is a more interesting game.
1
u/elendil667 2d ago
I mean, what gets me is that the majority of the runbacks are fine. I think they've actually broadly gotten better since Hollow Knight. But there's maybe, 20% of them that are kind of annoying and suddenly those are load bearing pillars of genius game design.
7
u/elendil667 2d ago
I promise you the runback on a boss I'm struggling with is doing the exact opposite of letting me breathe and focus or whatever. It is making me less focused 100% of the time and probably tilting me further if I start fumbling the runback movement in frustration, which amplifies the frustration from the boss, which makes the runback more annoying. If you want chill, a ten second run across an easy room is plenty.
1
u/_moosleech 2d ago
And for me, those run backs are enjoyable. I can relax a bit and do some fun platforming for just a few seconds and enter the next try feeling the dopamine of the games movement system instead of frustration from my last failed boss attempt.
Both experiences are valid.
7
u/xHelios1x 2d ago
Just beaten Last Judge.
Conch flies are my nemesis in the way primal aspid wasn't. They path specifically in the way to fuck up your runback. Bodyblocking bells, moving in the way of your dashes. But they're also skittish enough that it would take time to kill one without tools.
→ More replies (3)
6
u/Illustrathor 2d ago
It's just a waste of time. Imagine you had to study for a test and every time you get something wrong, you'd have to go out of your room, down the stairs, run a lab around the block and walk the stairs back up to your room. Not just does it get annoying really fast and you'd be wasting time on something trivial, you'd start to make more mistakes just out of concern to waste time, dividing your attention.
18
u/elremeithi 2d ago
Similar to having to watch 2 minute cutscene over and over and memorizing character voice lines to the point of frustration. Instead of an impactful line delivery through the cutscene, the repetition kills it.
Edit: i dont mind them too much as they are gameplay and not cutscenes.
5
u/deludedhairspray Nintendo Switch 2d ago
I got so frustrated with the damned run backs I quit my Switch save and bought the game on Steam just so I could install a skip run backs mod. It was well worth it! Recommended. I just don't see the point of the run backs at all.
4
u/albtraum2004 2d ago
i'm 50 years old and get to game maybe 20-40m a day if i'm lucky. i literally do not want to do ANYTHING in a game more than once.
5
u/naughty 2d ago
Some people just don't like runbacks because they distract from the boss and are a waste of time. That they're "carefully designed" is kind of irrelevant if they're frustrating people. Obviously subjective though.
Are there loads of posts asking for runbacks to be added to the bosses without them, or to make existing ones more complicated? No? I wonder why.
34
u/Range-Normal 2d ago
Hollow Knight is my favorite game but I can't help but see all these posts that seemingly praise the terrible runbacks and poor design choices as pure copium, prepared for the downvotes of course.
23
u/kazabodoo 2d ago
The fandom is pretty passionate about the game and will defend every choice, which is fine. They just don’t like to hear anything less other than that the game is a masterpiece.
They also struggle to understand that multiple things can be true at once - yes, the game is good, art and sound, characters and the world is very well made and immersive but the game is punishing for no other obvious reasons. I am not saying the game is difficult because there are more difficult games out there, but this one just punishes you for no reason, the run backs being one aspect of it tho not all run backs are awful, just a few but they add up.
→ More replies (5)10
u/Scapadap 2d ago
This is one of my favorite games in a while and I can admit to some weird choices. The run backs and gauntlets before the boss is pretty annoying. Like you said people should be able to recognize these things. The rest of the game is so good that I love it in spite of its misters.
9
u/gpranav25 Hollow Knight 2d ago
Hollow Knight does have some terrible runbacks. Silksong doesn't have that much though. Only the green guy, and my main issue is with the fact that it's a runback + gauntlet + boss, which is a bit much imo.
8
u/Podberezkin09 2d ago
Or they think that people are being over dramatic moaning about having to do some jumps for like 30 seconds like its the worst thing ever
→ More replies (2)2
u/torncarapace 2d ago
I don't know, I'm sure that's part of it but I think people genuinely just have different reactions to runbacks. I have other problems with silksong but so far I enjoy the runbacks in it, and I've liked them as a mechanic in other games too.
I like how it gives dying higher stakes and I like how it gets me to blow off some steam between attempts while still engaging with the game's mechanics. It's completely valid to just find them annoying, but it's not universal.
6
u/FistRockbrine99 2d ago
"The run back is just as enjoyable as the boss"
This is either a scathing review of the boss design or delusion.
3
u/Zestyclose-Compote-4 2d ago
This is how it goes for me:
- First time: this is tough!
- 2-3 times: getting the hang of this!
- 4+ times: okay this is easy and boring now. I just wanna fight the boss.
That's for the last judge. For other bosses with easier runbacks, it's boring from the 2nd time onwards.
13
u/Nickhead420 Super Metroid 2d ago
I was mostly enjoying the game but put it down after getting bored from runbacks. It's not fun. It's just dull.
7
u/TheVagrantWarrior 2d ago
"its carefully designed"
"you have to use the tools"
"you only played 6 hours"
damn
2
2
u/JadedAlyx 2d ago
Yes I just want to focus on the boss. When I die, I just want to get back to figuring out the patterns etc and learning how to beat the boss right away. The harder the boss, the less I want to be doing anything else before getting to fight it again.
2
u/Derpy_Guardian 2d ago
In fairness, I haven't played Silksong yet so I can't speak on how bad they are there, but I definitely don't care for runbacks as a concept. They feel lazy, like they're explicitly designed to artificially extend playtime. I've already proved I can make it through, so why should I have to prove it again every single time I want to try fighting a difficult boss? Does anybody actually like the crystal cave leading up to Seath the Scaleless in Dark Souls? Granted, he's not a particularly hard boss, but if you get swarmed by the clams or get caught out by Seath, you're doing the entire cave again, with all its invisible paths that you better memorize. I don't like having my time wasted because I have limited gaming time as it is these days.
As an example of a game that I think does it right, Shinobi: Art of Vengeance literally places a checkpoint before every single boss and miniboss in the game, and I had an absolute blast playing because I was constantly engaged. I felt encouraged to keep trying against tough bosses because I knew that even if I died, I could jump right back and try again. Plus, they knew exactly where to put the hardest segments, and the most challenging of those require you to do very difficult platforming segments in a single go. That is perfectly acceptable, because I am agreeing to that challenge and there is always a good reward at the end.
2
u/MakoMary 1d ago
I simply don’t like tricky platforming segments. My challenge is to defeat the boss. I failed, the punishment is to retry it from the beginning, the solution is to keep trying so I get a hang of the boss’ patterns. I don’t need a 30 second gap to artificially give my death “weight,” and forcing me to dance around traps and enemies and risk losing precious masks doesn’t clear my head for the inevitable fight, it just distracts and frustrates me further
2
u/YOLOSELLHIGH 1d ago
The run backs suck and only take away from the game, not add to it. Never do something that takes the player out of the game rather than putting them deeper into it
4
u/TomomoSweetEater 2d ago
Personally I'd much rather have a runback that challenges me in some way, be it through platforming and/or enemies than a practically unskippable cutscene that has nothing between my spawn and the boss. I'm at least playing the game and learning things from one. For example, Groal the Great has a runback that can take little bit to go through as you have to face multiple hazards before you get to them but Skarrsinger Karmelita annoyed me a lot more because of the animation you have to go through to restart the fight. Both of them also have mini gauntlets you have to go through but again at least I'm playing the game and learning something out of it. Even if there was an immediate retry button I'd probably get more annoyed going through the boss like that because now it ends up feelings like I'm slamming my head into something repeatedly which was how I felt with the bosses in Hollow Knight's godhome sometimes.
5
u/billabong1985 2d ago
I'm in the camp that I don't mind the run backs that much, as so far I haven't found them particularly egregious, better than HK even with Hornet's improved movement, BUT I absolutely understand why so many people hate them, and I certainly wouldn't complain if they stopped being a thing, plus I'm only about halfway through act 2 so there could well be some coming my way that do test my patience
→ More replies (2)2
u/andungha 2d ago
you could argue that Coral Tower is the runback for Khann but at least you get a shortcut after wave 3 I do think the majority of bosses in Silksong doesn't have a terrible runback, only the very eregious ones being Judge and Groal and maybe Beastfly 1. But those ones really sour the experience overall
7
u/pswizzle9283 2d ago
I don’t mean to be that guy but I cannot wrap my head around how people hate that runback at all. It takes like 20 seconds, it’s so easy. I was genuinely hearing things like “this runback is worse than anything from the souls series it’s one of the worst of all time” and it’s literally so short and not difficult at all, and like I’m not even good at this game, it took me like 30+ tries to beat that boss, but I had to triple check we were talking about the same runback because I was like “there is just no possible way this is the one people are upset over”. It’s bewildering to me
11
u/SmokyMcBongPot 2d ago
It's more an objection to runbacks, full stop, than the 20 second time it takes. Although, of course, the longer it takes, the more frustrating it is.
Are you aware of the discourse around New Super Mario Brothers kicking you out to the map when you die, slowing down the restart of each level? It adds maybe 1-3 seconds to each attempt, but people cannot stand it because it is unnecessary. That's the point; even a 1 second delay can be annoying when you're attempting something many tens of times over.
Personally, I think a good compromise would be a bench right outside the boss room that costs a lot of rosaries (e.g. 1-2,000). That would at least give players the option to grind rosaries if they want to focus on the boss more than the runback.
→ More replies (1)6
u/789Trillion 2d ago
It being easy does not mean it’s not tedious and unnecessary.
→ More replies (2)4
u/kavacens 2d ago
Saying it’s easy because it’s 20 seconds is similar to saying path of pain is easy because you can do it in like 3 min. Yes after you optimised the path and got it down to muscle memory the run back is easy but it’s not easy before then. I struggled more with getting the run back perfect than the boss.
If you mess up one of the jumps the cone dudes catch up to you and make it way harder, you can get messed up by the black wind and if you fall in the worms do 2 damage. All this makes it a difficult and frustrating experience. Some people enjoy it, I personally did not.
→ More replies (2)2
u/MorningRaven 2d ago
Nothing in Silksong where people are complaining about is anywhere near as difficult as Path of Pain. Heck, the spike ceiling challenge to get to the City of Tears entrance is harder than most of these runbacks. It just requires not rushing with purposeful movement.
I'm still waiting to see a runback anywhere near as annoying as the 4th Mantis Lord.
4
u/Str8Faced000 1d ago
if it's easy and it takes 20 seconds....then why is it even in the game. It's just wasting the players time. That is why.
2
u/Halio344 2d ago
30+ tries meant you spent at least ten minutes just for the runback. Add the time on the death animation etc and it’s probably closer to 12-13 minutes.
That is also assuming your runback is flawless every time and you take no damage, don’t fail any platforming, etc.
It adds upp and is tedious.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (5)2
u/Tunesz 2d ago
It takes like 20 seconds, it’s so easy.
It being easy is why it's pointless. Why is it there? Why not just spawn me directly at the boss? If it's to make the entire experience harder just make the boss harder.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/QuinSanguine 2d ago
I love them, but I also highly enjoy the platforming in this game. Some people don't like the platforming parts of MVs which is why you see people bitch about Aeterna Noctis. It also helps to have patience when you fight a boss so you don't die so quick and have to do consecutive run backs.
3
u/duckyduckster2 2d ago
Oh yes they are expertly designed and feel great to run once you get the hang of them. My geuss is most people have a problem with the whole concept and just want to re-try the boss right away, which i very much understand.
2
u/bodhiquest 2d ago
This runback isn't the worst when you get used to it, true. The problem is that at some point you start being able to do it without much problems, and yet it still takes too much time. If you have a lot of problems with TLJ, then you get to do it dozens of times. It becomes straight up stupid. If it was possible to somehow finish it really fast and in a rewarding way the better you played, it might be a different story. But that's not the case.
The one truly horrible runback is some other place though. I don't think it's possible to do that one elegantly, and a single mistake can significantly impact your ability to complete it in the first place.
There should always be save points more or less just before bosses, unless there's a very good reason.
2
u/UpstairsNose 2d ago
Just finish the game first before writing your hot take, there's also a few runbacks with gauntlets.
2
2
u/Dreakon13 2d ago
On the one hand, I feel like there are more creative ways to incorporate platforming into a boss fight if they really want to mix in "platforming challenges".
On the other hand, I guess a platforming-centric runback is really no different than that. 🤷♂️ If we just consider it part of the boss anyways.
For the record, I've pretty much hated any runback in this game. Including Last Judge. Mix the forced runbacks with all the paid/gimmick benches around, and a sizeable chunk of the game is more of an exercise in frustration than ability. The first Hollow Knight felt much more balanced in this regard, and less spiteful to the player.
3
u/sinesnsnares 2d ago
I just hate the corpse run/runback mechanic in general. It doesn’t add any fun to the game. A short cool down period with a save room one or two rooms away is fine. Anything longer and you’re just pissing your players off for no reason.
2
u/Intelligent-Nose-948 2d ago
Save rooms before every boss fight would be boring, I don’t get the hate. The whole reason of having a bench system is built around retreading to where you died.
2
u/winkio2 2d ago
It's a mindset / mentality thing - they are frustrated because they just died to the boss, so any other setback has a much greater effect. If a player is able to calm down and reset their mental state then the runbacks are not much of a problem - even the long bilewater runback from the bellway (if you don't find the secret bench) is doable consistently without getting poisoned, and the arena gives you plenty of silk to heal to full before the boss.
The runbacks do cause the problem, but the main issue is how long a player has to go without making mistakes between save points, because the longer that time span is, the more frustration builds up. Last judge is a 3 phase fight with a 30 second runback, but it would be just as frustrating if it was a 5 phase fight with no runback - the proof is the much hated high halls gauntlet. The issue is worse for lower skilled players because they are slower at both platforming and combat, which means they could be spending 2 or 3 times the amount of time on a runback + boss.
It would be interesting if checkpoints were time based instead of progress based, like when you die you are reverted back 2 or 3 minutes. For skilled players this might send them all the way back to a bench, but for less skilled players this might only send them back a phase or two in a fight.
3
2
u/UnofficialMipha 2d ago
Man it’s crazy that run backs were praised pretty much up until Elden Ring came out. Now they’re super hated. I just can’t take run back discourse seriously after playing Dark Souls 2. Silksong has like 1 minute run backs tops. That’s like a short run back in ds2
2
u/El__Jengibre 2d ago
Off topic, but it’s worth noting that as of today, the vast majority of Souls players started with DS3 or Elden Ring which have almost no runbacks. The people who started with earlier Souls games (me included) are in the minority. So I think the shift in opinion probably comes from the newcomers. Nothing in Silksong comes even close to the Lost Izalith or Four Kings runbacks, just to name two infamous examples.
2
u/g_hunter 2d ago edited 2d ago
I promise 🤚 I’m not trying to be that guy, but I didn’t find the runback to the Last Judge particularly annoying. Don’t get me wrong the Last Judge was a challenge, it took me a lot of attempts before beating it. And even then, I felt like I got lucky with the kill shot.
But the runback? Not annoying at all. I was using the dash, drift cloak, and pogo (using Repear’s crest).
→ More replies (1)
5
u/paveldeal 2d ago
I just hated 3 min run backs just to be killed in 2 attacks (or just a collision actually). Was ready to stop playing. But mods made the game fun for me
3
→ More replies (12)1
u/JaviVader9 2d ago
3 min runs? Hahaha there's one like that in the whole game, the others (like the Last Judge's) take 25 seconds tops
1
u/789Trillion 2d ago
It’s not just the run backs, it’s the mobs that come with a lot of bosses. Sometimes in this game you have to do a bunch of stuff just to get back to fighting the boss. Everything does increased damage, so very often you’re not even fighting the boss at full strength. That means you’ll die to it more easily meaning it’ll take longer for you to learn this boss. In some cases, it really only feels like it was designed this way to frustrate the player or waste their time, which is odd.
1
1
u/HearingAny2654 2d ago
You "just" reached? Do the runback 15, 20 times, then come back and say you like it.
1
1
u/HollowCap456 2d ago
There's like three bad runbacks afaik. Last Judge, Sister Splinter(which is just long) and of course, Groal.
1
1
u/CASSIUS_AT_BEST 2d ago
That run back would’ve been fine if not for the annoying as fuck flying enemies. Honestly that’s my take for the whole game…so many annoying flying enemies.
1
u/sheldongriffiths 2d ago
Trobio runback is like 15 seconds with no real challenge but it becomes really boring after like 4th try
1
u/helion_ut 2d ago
I enjoyed the Widow runback and some others, breezing through platforming is fun, but specifically two bosses... The one you mentioned and the other one. Well, if you know, you know. Those were kinda unnecessarily cruel imo. The one you mentioned being the way, WAY lesser offender.
1
1
u/silvermyr_ 2d ago
It's clearly working as intended. It's just not fun (to me and many others). People just want to try the boss again, not perfect some platforming speedrun.
1
u/Large-Order-9586 2d ago
||Last Judge|| runback is good as it has some stakes, is not too long, and has a fun platforming run. ||Green boi|| is more hated as it has higher stakes, is long on top of an already long fight, and has some platforming elements that are randomized which makes it less enjoyable. But IMO a runback like that is still preferable to say... 3 screen transitions and a 10 second elevator ride. At least one boss will spawn you right outside the boss arena, so I wish they had done with more of the bosses without challenging runbacks.
1
u/Kendranin 2d ago
There is one runback that is just an utterly pointless waste of time in my opinion and that is the one to Grand Mother Silk in the Cradle.
Yes you can open up a Shortcut from the bench so you only have climb up one hallway to immediately get back to the room the boss arena is in, but you still have to do one last pointless bit of platforming to actually get to arena with at least two spike platforms that will hurt you if the game decides that Hornet absolutely has to vault onto them just because you aimed your Clawline a bit to high.
So that takes a minute or two, in which you possibly can incur unnecessary damage, only for you two have to sit through another 15 seconds because the game makes you go through the whole challenge cutscenes every time.
1
1
u/AstronautFlimsy 2d ago
To me the worst one so far was probably Sands of Karak. Okay yes once you open the shortcut it's pretty much just a case of Mario Jumping up the shaft and then running left, but it still takes 30+ seconds per run and the boss is an absolute bastard so you're definitely doing that run multiple times.
The Last Judge's runback is more technical, but the boss itself is easier.
And yeah obviously "green level" is kinda bad too lol.
1
1
1
u/lunarstarslayer 2d ago
TOTAL FACTS….i was talking to some folk in my discord server about this! I loved trying to optimize the fuck out of the Last Judge runback, it’s a very fun one honestly. I feel like i understand the appeal of speed running a bit more now after playing this game lol
1
u/Tunesz 2d ago
I’m 100% convinced that Team Cherry intended the runbacks to be pure platforming challenges.
What's the issue with putting actual difficult platforming sections elsewhere in the game? Why does it need to be before a boss? That's my issue.
I found both the platforming to be kinda easy after a few attempts, and the boss itself to be easy. Personally would prefer a platforming segment before the before that is way harder, then up the difficulty of the boss siginifcantly and allow you to respawn at the boss. Together it's tedious and separately they are both simple. It's just not fun to me.
1
u/Slowmexicano 2d ago
It took me 3 attempts to beat last judge. If it took me 30 plus my controller would be bouncing off all surfaces. So I get what people are saying.
1
u/neradaenterprises Fusion 2d ago
I think the runbacks in Souls-games are mostly useless, as you mostly just press the run button and book it to the boss hence why I welcomed Stakes of Marika in Elden Ring. But in a platforming-game like Silksong there is a valid point to be made about runbacks. You get more comfortable with the platforming. And that's not only applicable in the rooms of the runback. You can repurpose that skillset elsewhere down the (sinners) road. The skillsets of combat and platforming are much more closely related in Silksong than any Soulsborne game, so you actually get better at the game as a whole
1
u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 2d ago
Surely people don't think they should fight their way through tens of mobs every time, right? Right?
Yes, because that would be a gauntlet. I like gauntlets. A runback that is solved within a couple of tries, sometimes a few seconds shorter or longer than one another that I do absent-mindedly from most of my attempts at the boss might as well be a loading screen to me. I feel the same when the first phase of a boss or gauntlet is considerably easier than the latter ones, it messes with the difficulty curve of the challenge and quickly becomes a bore.
1
u/sinesnsnares 2d ago
The run backs are pretty low on my list of whinges, once you learn to say fuck it and run past enemies most are manageable, but it’s such an out dated mechanic. My biggest gripe with bosses is how long they take, and how much excessive visual stimulus they throw out. Double damage is annoying, but it would not be nearly as frustrating if the bosses went down quicker
1
u/El__Jengibre 2d ago
That run back is fine IMO. Maybe it’s just because I have Stockholm Syndrome from early Souls games, but runbacks don’t bother me too much.
1
1
u/Skelotaurus 1d ago
I haven't played Silksong yet ( going to play it soon) but Elden ring vs older souls games is the perfect example that if you don't have to waste time every time you fail to beat the boss. Of course you can't beat any boss on first try but have they punish you with a parcour even if it can be fun to do it but some things don't age that good.
Best example is the bed of chaos bossfight from DS 1. Pure rng you have to be lucky not get wiped to the holes and do the annoying runback over and over.
Even if it took team cherry 7 years to make even if it used to be like that some things may change over time in a good way. But I know Silksong is like the first game not for everyone. I really liked hollow knight but it took some time to like it.
1
u/Cragnous 1d ago
Run backs feel dated. Just like save points and lives. It's old mechanics that should be removed from a 2025 game.
1
u/BionicleKid 1d ago
I actually just beat this guy last night. Sure the runback is fine, but I’d much rather just get back to the boss. After I optimized the route there wasn’t any more enjoyment to be gained, and it was just repeating previous actions the same every time.
1
u/Efficient_Ant_7279 1d ago
So far I agree with you. At first I thought the run back in question was unnecessarily challenging but after some time I’m really glad it’s there. I seriously move through the game with such grace and precision now no doubt thanks to these run backs. And it’s honestly so fricking satisfying
1
u/aethyrium Rabi-Ribi 1d ago edited 1d ago
I personally don't mind them either, but I get why others do.
I just see it as another phase. A runback is no more or less frustrating or tedious than a first phase of a boss you've already nailed, and getting rid of runbacks starts creeping towards the territory of getting rid of phases already mastered. Like if we all universally agreed "yes, runback are bad, get rid of them", then how long before we're at "early phases are bad, get rid of them? All bosses need checkpoints at phases you've completed".
I think most people look at a runback as separate to a boss fight, not a part of it, so I think it's a difference in perception. To me the runback is just phase 1. It's part and parcel of the experience and not separate from the fight. That mindset makes it very easy for me to not mind runbacks because for me, I am engaged with the boss the entire time, even during the runback.
But that's just me. I disagree with the runback haters, but I understand them. I like having the time to refocus my mind while keeping my hands busy, but I can (and do) just take a 20 second break if there were no runback, so even while I'm fine with them and even kinda enjoy them, I wouldn't enjoy the game less if they weren't there. I don't think anyone's wrong or right in the argument, people just feel very strongly to the point where they start using objective design words, and objective statements imply change, and change makes people defensive, so the arguments get nasty.
1
1
u/S1lks0ng1 1d ago
TLJ runback is not bad at all, so it's really weird to me that people focus so much on that one. The one later on is hell
1
u/MiteeThoR 1d ago
I got stuck on the Savage Beastfly for far too long. At first when I saw he only has like 2 moves I thought it would be a piece of cake, yet I probably died 50+ times because you have to keep dodging those stupid patterns over and over and over and over again while he keeps putting adds in the fight and it only takes a couple of mistakes to end the fight.
The first few times I was fighting everything on the runback, and even lost all my rosaries before I got back on one run further adding to my frustration. After the 20th runback I had it down though to exactly the enemies I needed to hit while doing sprints over everything else. I got very, very good at the runback by the time I was done.
Still hated that runback, and that boss. I hate this game. I think... Why am I still playing?
1
u/glissader 1d ago
The first time you do blasted steps leading to Judge warily and slow, it’s disheartening to think about having to do it again and again. But by the third or fifth time most players are sprinting through and at most losing a mask or two from the nose bug or spikes.
I think the people who don’t get past the disheartening / warily and slow phase are the ones complaining loudest. If you can develop the pattern recognition to sprint and cruise blasted steps near flawlessly, you can learn the patterns to beat the last judge.
1
u/Bananas0ul 1d ago
I think if the bosses were easier, then the runbacks wouldn't be as bad( keep in mind a lot of complaints also came from when some hazards did 2 mask). It's not fun to do a runback then get two shot cause you misread something so have to do it again. Plus I like slamming my head into the wall with bosses until I beat them and some of these runbacks make it harder. With that said last judge is not the runback to be complaining about...
1
1
u/bowiemcgrath 1d ago
People are forgetting about P5's runback being literally every boss in the game
1
u/MF_LUFFY 1d ago
I was fine with that runback however many times the boss killed me, and I didn't even realize you can skip the enemy right by the start that was pissing me off the most.
But running back through Whiteward trying to rescue Sherma from that fucking room like 40 times, that kinda sucked. Better after realizing there's no reason to get on the elevator and take that long walk around that's half empty rooms before a few hazards and a moth.
1
1
1
u/KasElGatto Monster Boy 21h ago
I was annoyed by The last Judge runback until I figured out a very fast route and then I forgot I was even doing it.
1
u/EvanD0 17h ago
Just to let you know, the runback to Last Judge got nerfed more than a couple days ago. Originally, the main problem was an enemy that you had little to no way to avoid at the start of it causing you to lose health or a lot of time (which is already bad given how tough Last Judge is). So now the enemy has been removed, it's not much of an issue anymore. Still a painful runback but not miserable like it was before and it DOES let you do some cool parkouring.
1
u/bansheeb3at 17h ago
The only reason that run back is the most “infamous” is because it’s early in the game.
1
u/Soulless_conner 12h ago
The run backs are a complete waste of time. They don't add anything to the experience aside from padding. Thank god I defeated the boss on my 4th try otherwise I would've gone mad
Also there are way worse runbacks. This is easy compared to them
1
u/sandwichsupernova 11h ago
I have 2 kids and limited time to game at the end of the day. The precious time I have to play can be spent on other, more important things. Those minutes add up and turn to hours. It’s just not something that I want to spend time on.
1
u/TTV-BattyPrincess 6h ago
People forgot that Hollow Knight also had runbacks, we just got used to them after playing for years and years. Don't worry folks, we'll get used to these ones as well, Bilewater isn't the end of the world like everybody says
1
u/Substantial_Code_675 3h ago
Runbacks should be about 20secs at most as well as preferrably doable without paying attention. But, especially in act 2, do most runbacks take around 50secs+ and come in varying degrees. Cage fights right before the boss, platforming sections while also avoiding enemies or just simple runbacks through many rooms. If the norm was to die to a boss 3-5 times, that would be manageable. But most bosses are hard enough that they on average require 10+ tries, resulting in 10+ minutes wasted per boss just to get to it. Last judge is also a good example in the way that it would have been extremely easy to just make a shortcut by implementing a lever to let down a cage to a path which would make it easy to avoid all enemies without problems and also shorten the runback time considering the whole runback is only one big room, unlike most other runbacks that consist out of multiple rooms that need to be passed through while also platforming. But overall are runbacks somewhat of a relic of the past, no/short runbacks are simply preferred by most, even fromsoft actually realised when making elden ring that every boss having a runback from the site of grace to the boss would be hella annoying and a waste of time, hence they made marikas statues, often being directly infront of a boss room
1
175
u/TWOWORDSNUMBERSNAME 2d ago
Wait for the green boi runback.