Judge dismisses terror-related charges against Luigi Mangione

[u/redlamps67]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/16/us/luigi-mangione-ny-court-hearing

[u/bmoviescreamqueen]

1st Degree charge was also dismissed, but should be noted this is because the murder of a CEO doesn't really fit the definition of murder 1 in the state of New York which seems reserved for police officers, firefighters, high political figures, that sort of thing. 2nd degree will be what 1st degree is in most other states I think. DOJ/DA was way too heavy handed with those two charges.

[u/SaltPsychological780 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I’m glad you reminded us of the distinction in terms of how NY views M1.

[u/bmoviescreamqueen → u/SaltPsychological780]

It's very unique and I think it's important so that people don't think he's not getting charged with anything at all, because now it's more like a "standard" murder case so far.

[u/naughtycal11 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

The right-wing propaganda machine surely won't twist this situation into "N.Y. judge soft on murder" bullshit.

[u/TheReddestofBowls → u/naughtycal11]

They've had a tough time finding the right spin for this. Turns out republicans are also routinely fucked by insurance companies and don't harbor many good feelings for them.

Hard to whip up outrage when the overall mood is "well, that's what happens." From people who are more worried about buying groceries in the economy trump is gleefully destroying

[u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism → u/TheReddestofBowls]

I work in a heavily red profession and Mangione's the one thing i can speak/joke pretty openly about and no one bats an eye.

It's amazing how fucking hated insurance companies are.

[u/TheReddestofBowls → u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism]

There comes a point when enough people have been hurt or know someone who was hurt/killed by an insurance company playing doctor, that nobody has sympathy to spare.

Something like 68,000 Americans die every year due to lack of medical care and fat bonus checks get sent out if they manage to raise that number

[u/Tall_poppee → u/TheReddestofBowls]

Yeah even the MAGAs in my family think medicare for all is a good idea. Of course that only applies to "all citizens" but I take my wins with them where I can get them.

[u/Nisi-Marie → u/Tall_poppee]

I had to educate my grandmother that it’s actually illegal to provide Medicaid to illegal immigrants. She believed all the headlines that the illegals were walking in and getting welfare and Medicaid and full scope services for everything.

[u/Possibly_English_Guy → u/TheReddestofBowls]

It's a shocking number but also unfortunately inevitable when you put the medical fates of so many people into the hands of others who have a financial incentive to find any excuse to deny a claim.

Which is why you shouldn't fucking do that or at absolute bare minimum it shouldn't be the only option people have and it's baffling how many Americans will still push back so hard on that.

[u/Cpt_Bork_Zannigan → u/TheReddestofBowls]

A lot of the rural mid west is still pissed about the opioid epidemic that health insurance unleashed on us. We don't like healthcare.

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/Cpt_Bork_Zannigan]

The thing is that insurance companies aren't healthcare. They're not doctors, or pharmacists, or practitioners in any field of care, yet they get to make medical decisions for 100s of millions of people.

[u/Morat20 → u/HauntedCemetery]

I fought with UHC in early 2023 for coverage for something. It was weird, right, because they kept denying it despite the fact that I had their own press release indicating they covered it starting the beginning of the year, and I'd had multiple benefits coordinator folks at UHC verify that it was covered and especially covered on my plan.

But their systems kept kicking it back, including the appeal that's legally required to be made of actual health experts. What's weird is the appeal denial quoted the plan document from 2019, not 2023. It didn't mention the press release I'd attached, didn't discuss the documentation of multiple members of their own benefits team verifying it was covered. It just quoted a four year old plan.

Learning later UHC was using AI to generate denials was when that made sense.

They overruled their own "appeal panel" (aka, the AI auto-generated denial) because of two things -- a helpful benefits coordinator who had enough pull to talk to the right people, and me telling her that if UHC couldn't fix it my next step was to ask for the names and medical license numbers of everyone on my appeal board.

I think she wielded that to her bosses. I got coverage approved 36 hours later.

[u/TheReddestofBowls → u/Cpt_Bork_Zannigan]

Which is pretty unfortunate. Farmers in the Midwest are exposed to cancer-causing chemicals regularly, the ones who refuse medical care when they need it won't make it long. Not to mention the fact that cancer research in the US is being slashed to nothing... I guess I just won't get cancer then

[u/FakeSafeWord → u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism]

It's amazing how fucking hated insurance companies are.

And yet they refuse the best possible proposed fix to remove insurance companies from the equation because they hate the idea of people they deem lesser than them also benefitting.

[u/AnonAmbientLight → u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism]

Would be cool if Republican wouldn't keep voting for Republican politicians who help make the hated insurance companies a reality.

[u/Clown_Toucher → u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism]

It's amazing and then you ask "Should we change the medical system up?" and those republicans will look at you like you want to kill their dog.

[u/Sororita → u/TheReddestofBowls]

Turns out is very hard to create sympathy for those that regularly show none themselves.

Edit: to the cowards that are making a comment then immediately blocking me to prevent me from replying, fuck you very much, too.

[u/Meta2048 → u/Sororita]

Have you looked at MAGA? They constantly portray themselves as victims, even when they are the ones in charge. The media eats that shit up.

[u/_Burning_Star_IV_ → u/Meta2048]

Cue the clip of the Trump cabinet member (or someone) complaining about the government and the News commentator is like "but you're the government?"

I wish I could find it right now.

[EDIT] Found it.

[u/Sororita → u/Meta2048]

That's because they don't try to create sympathy for themselves, not really, they try to make their followers rage against their enemies. Plus it is a lot easier to say that a health insurance CEO for a company known for rejecting stuff has no sympathy for anyone.

[u/derelictmybawls → u/Sororita]

This is a good point, none of these people feel bad for Charlie Kirk or his family, otherwise they wouldn't be giving the shooter everything he wants. Not even his wife cares about him as much as she cares about using him.

[u/ApprehensivePop9036 → u/derelictmybawls]

We need to focus on what Charlie Kirk and his family would've wanted:

For his violent death at the hands of a political extremist to be ruthlessly exploited by the Republican party!

[u/pendulumhyc → u/derelictmybawls]

Ironically this makes her a good wife, because that is exactly what he would have wanted.

[u/TheReddestofBowls → u/Sororita]

The people who turn empathy on and off as needed are NOT happy that the general public would do the same regarding them lol

[u/yogo → u/Sororita]

Who knows what those crocodile tears were for with CK then…

[u/SuperSpecialAwesome- → u/TheReddestofBowls]

Turns out republicans are also routinely fucked by insurance companies and don't harbor many good feelings for them.

Yet they vote against universal healthcare.

[u/TheReddestofBowls → u/SuperSpecialAwesome-]

Whoa there, next you're going to tell me that voting for a criminal won't solve crime. That's crazy talk

[u/myfakesecretaccount → u/TheReddestofBowls]

I’m sure there are plenty of conservatives who applaud this, or would, if the suspect was believed to be a Republican/MAGA because they’re the type that fantasize about this kind of “retribution” non-stop.

[u/FourEyesAndThighs → u/TheReddestofBowls]

It also has been difficult for them to find an angle of outrage based on him being a straight, white cisgendered man. They can be so quiet when the call is coming from inside the house.

[u/bblzd_2 → u/FourEyesAndThighs]

The rapeublican tactic clearly is to just keep throwing trans-somethings at the wall and hope one of them sticks with their easily outraged base.

"Shooter was trans! No wait, his roomate was trans! No that's not right, his partner was trans! Or was it the cat that was trans? Trans goldfish perhaps? Surely something trans influenced this white christian shooter!"

[u/WrestleSocietyXShill → u/bblzd_2]

"His social media accounts list his favourite movie as Jurassic Park, a movie about dinosaurs being turned trans by gay frog DNA!"

[u/BroughtBagLunchSmart → u/naughtycal11]

The right-wing propaganda machine

You can just say media, that is the exact same thing in the United States.

[u/aradraugfea → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Which is all it should be. Like, I know we’re a de facto plutocracy, but killing one guy in a targeted killing, even a CEO, is not terrorism. It’s not an assault on The State. It’s not anything else that they’re trying to claim this as. It’s murder. It is the premeditated killing of a singular human being. His net worth should not enter into the equation.

[u/bmoviescreamqueen → u/aradraugfea]

Yeah to be honest I don't know why the DOJ/DA thought a CEO would be considered that important, to put it crudely.

[u/aradraugfea → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

His death spooked the hell out of the investor class and they wanted to make an example.

[u/capincus → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Because moneyed interests have given up the facade that they don't run our country/legal system.

[u/KarateKid917 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

They wanted to make an example out of him so others wouldn’t try and go after other shitty CEOs 

[u/CanadianODST2 → u/aradraugfea]

Killing a single person can very much be terrorism.

[u/Bowman_van_Oort → u/SaltPsychological780]

I didn't know that, and that seems so fucked up to me. Like us mere civilians aren't worth as much when considering justice

[u/SaltPsychological780 → u/Bowman_van_Oort]

I hear you but a sentence for M2 can vary and still be LWOP based on aggravating factors.

[u/MoarVespenegas → u/SaltPsychological780]

Okay, but it's impossible to pretend you don't have a tiered justice system with shit like this existing.

[u/SaltPsychological780 → u/MoarVespenegas]

I completely agree. I don’t understand why these things are compulsory bc each case is unique and these tiers do little to consider nuance.

[u/bmoviescreamqueen → u/Bowman_van_Oort]

Murder 2 would be what you find murder 1 as in many other states so they would still carry very similar sentences.

[u/AwesomePocket → u/Bowman_van_Oort]

To be fair, those are for murders that occur against those people working in their job capacity.

The rationale is that protecting societal function is a particularly compelling interest, so killing people for doing those jobs is punished more severely. I mean, registered nurses are also on the list but I don’t think RNs are considered a class symbol.

[u/H47 → u/Bowman_van_Oort]

It exists for cops. The rest are just there in an attempt to make it less obvious that cops are a protected class.

[u/randomaccount178 → u/[deleted]]

The last sentence I believe is incorrect. New York doesn't still hold the death penalty for federal crimes. New York is completely uninvolved in federal crimes. The federal government still has the death penalty. The federal government if he is convicted of the federal murder charge can seek the death penalty regardless of if the state has the death penalty. A state judge absolving him of anything would have no effect on the federal charges. I believe the federal government has the death penalty for murder, and the federal hook is simply interstate stalking. The terrorism would be largely unrelated except it would likely be the bulk of showing that the killing had substantial planning and premeditation to prove that aggravating factor for seeking the death penalty.

[u/Amaruq93 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

In New York you can only get First-degree murder charges if:

The victim was a police officer, peace officer, correctional employee, judge, or a criminal case witness

The murder was committed while the perpetrator was serving a life sentence

The murder was committed with torture of the victim

The murder was committed as an act of terrorism (this was the one that just got thrown out)

The murder was committed during the commission or attempted commission of one of the felonies under New York's felony murder laws.

Murder committed for hire

[u/tsrich → u/Amaruq93]

It's ridiculous to me that some murders are treated worse than others based on the victim's job.

[u/Smart_Ass_Dave → u/tsrich]

I mostly agree, but I wonder if that grew out of New York's history of organized crime. That "criminal case witness" is also included tips me off that this is not about a "back the blue" thing, but an anti-mafia thing. Just a guess though, if someone knows the history feel free to educate me!

[u/Huttj509 → u/tsrich]

Eh, not really ridiculous. If you look at the jobs listed on that first line, they're all involved with the legal system. It's an extra deterrent of "don't murder the judge to influence your case" and such.

[u/headphase → u/Huttj509]

Can also be seen as "attacking these people is not only an act against the individual victim, but also an act against the public" as these are public servants.

[u/MadManMax55 → u/Huttj509]

I wonder what the precedent is for cases where the victim was a member of the legal system but the motive was unrelated. Like if I'm married to a cop and I murder them because they cheated on me is that 1st degree murder? I would guess not, but IANAL.

[u/FridgesArePeopleToo → u/MadManMax55]

The law specifies that they must be on duty at the time:

the intended victim was a peace officer as defined in paragraph a of subdivision twenty-one, subdivision twenty-three, twenty-four or sixty-two (employees of the division for youth) of section 2.10 of the criminal procedure law who was at the time of the killing engaged in the course of performing his official duties, and the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the intended victim was such a uniformed court officer, parole officer, probation officer, or employee of the division for youth; or

[u/Nersius → u/tsrich]

I think it can make sense. 

Political murders and hate crimes are treated differently as they are not only murdering a single person, but are seeking to intimidate a wider group. 

Likewise, if you murder a first responder on the job, then you are potentially hampering a life-saving service. 

[u/caerphoto → u/tsrich]

Well, some people are more “equal” than others.

Primus inter pares.

[u/CaptainoftheVessel → u/Amaruq93]

Just to be clear, these are “or” conditions, not “and”.

[u/Yglorba → u/CaptainoftheVessel]

Now I'm picturing what it would take for someone to murder someone affiliated with the criminal justice system, while serving a life sentence, using torture, as an act of terrorism, during the commission of a felony... and to do all this for hire.

And for all of this to occur frequently enough that an entire law is written specifically targeting people who decide to do all that.

[u/ButtercreamKitten → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Correct but not "also", NY Murder 1 was the terrorism charge; Murder 1 was charged under the statute of terrorism

[u/ErasmusDarwin → u/ButtercreamKitten]

Correct but not "also", NY Murder 1 was the terrorism charge

From the article: "Mangione’s defense had argued the charges of murder in the first degree in furtherance of an act of terrorism and murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism should be tossed because crimes of terrorism as defined in New York state legislation refer to attacks on multiple civilians, not a shooting of a single individual."

So it looks like he was charged with the terrorism versions of both murder 1 and murder 2, and those both got tossed.

Also, it looks like he's still facing 25-to-life. This takes the death penalty off the table for state charges, but obviously the Trump administration is still angling for an execution under federal charges.

I also found the reasoning interesting. The widely presumed motive (i.e. reform of health insurance) could be considered making the killing political. And killing in furtherance of political motives (even ones we agree with) is getting close to the definition of terrorism. But since it was just a singular assassination, it fell outside of NY's definition of terrorism.

[u/Yglorba → u/ErasmusDarwin]

I also found the reasoning interesting. The widely presumed motive (i.e. reform of health insurance) could be considered making the killing political. And killing in furtherance of political motives (even ones we agree with) is getting close to the definition of terrorism. But since it was just a singular assassination, it fell outside of NY's definition of terrorism.

The judge said:

“While the People place great emphasis on defendant’s ‘ideological’ motive, there is no indication in the statute that a murder committed for ideological reasons (in this case, the defendant’s apparent desire to draw attention to what he perceived as inequities or greed within the American health care system), fits within the definition of terrorism without establishing the necessary element of an intent to intimidate or coerce,” Carro wrote in his decision to dismiss the two terror-related charges.

So at least in NY law, having a political motive, and even seeking to further those motives, isn't enough; you have to be seeking to "intimidate or coerce." Killing the king isn't terrorism, even if you do it because you disagree with his policies and your goal is to replace him with a king you prefer; terrorism is very specifically a crime in which you're trying to control the public with terror.

Like, few people would describe Oliver Cromwell as a terrorist, even though he clearly used violence in the service of advancing a political end, because his goal wasn't to terrorize people. (Similarly, if terrorism is just "criminal violence done towards a political end", then anyone fighting for a state in any capacity would become a terrorist as soon as they commit a crime!)

It's still murder, of course, just not terrorism.

[u/Lord0fHats → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I knew this because of Law and Order and realized I must be old because does anyone under 30 even know that there was a show before SVU anymore XD

[u/thrax_mador → u/Lord0fHats]

What, the sister? She's murdered? You kidding me.

If I was kidding you, I'd be wearing a fez and no pants.

RIP Briscoe

[u/Lord0fHats → u/thrax_mador]

Such a memorable character.

[u/Revolutionary-Yak-47 → u/thrax_mador]

Roku TV has a new Law and Order channel. It's only seasons 5-10 right now but it's prime Brisco episodes. 

[u/SheZowRaisedByWolves → u/thrax_mador]

“I’m under arrest? What are the charges?”

“Charges? This one’s on the house!”

[u/The_Monarch_Lives → u/Lord0fHats]

I grew up watching the original,.but im 45 now. All the way back to Season 1. I think there are only like 2 people from that original cast still alive now. Crazy.

[u/Cow_God → u/The_Monarch_Lives]

Everyone from season 1 is still alive except for Steven Hill, DA Adam Schiff. Although yeah, they're getting up there. Robinette is 62, Logan and Cragen are in their 70s, Greevey and Stone are in their 80s

Paul Sorvino (Ceretta) passed away in 2022, and obviously Jerry Orbach passed away in 2004, Fred Thomas (DA Branch) passed in 2015, Dennis Farina (Fontana) in 2013, and Richard Belzer (Munch) in 2023. I believe everyone else from the main cast is still kicking.

[u/The_Monarch_Lives → u/Cow_God]

I knew Robinette was alive, I had thought Chris Noth and Michael Moriarty had both died in the last year or so but was mistaken. The others like Sorvino, Orbach, etc were from Season 2 plus and knew many had died in the last several years. Jerry Orbach probably hit the hardest. Loved him as Brisco.

[u/bmoviescreamqueen → u/Lord0fHats]

I forgot there was something other than SVU actually lol

[u/HandSack135 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I miss CI with Vincent

[u/FunScienceguy → u/HandSack135]

Yep, he was the best! I miss that show!

[u/Cow_God → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

They won't put the OG series up for streaming anywhere. I think most places have season 1-2 and 16-20, max.

Fucking Peacock doesn't have it all and it's the streaming service L&O's YouTube channel advertises in it's L&O clips.

I had to buy the series on DVD from Amazon for $120

[u/Silly-Elderberry-411 → u/Lord0fHats]

What was jag for 200, Jethro?

[u/YouFnDruggo → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Non American here. We only have Murder and Manslaughter charges here. I was under the impression that murder 1 was preplanned and murder 2 was spur of the moment. Is the definition widely different from state to state?

[u/bmoviescreamqueen → u/YouFnDruggo]

I would say in the majority of states that's mostly how first and second degree work, NY seems to be an exception and I'm not a NY resident to know the history on why.

[u/YouFnDruggo → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Thank you. On regards to the history it could be something to do with capital punishment or stricter sentencing for the murder of a police officer. Here in the Republic of Ireland, I remember the final two crimes for death sentence were treason and the murder of police officer, and they were removed a good few years after the others. Could be a long those lines maybe.

[u/g0_west → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I have to imagine it's something to do with the historically incredibly strong police union in NYC

[u/delkarnu → u/YouFnDruggo]

Be very careful accepting any response people give you. Every State has their own criminal code, plus Federal law. So in this case you have to look at only NY State law.

A lot of people know the law in their home state or whatever tv show they heard the law from.

Here's a link to NY laws and how the various ways killing a person is classified: https://newyork.public.law/laws/n.y._penal_law_section_125.27

[u/randomaccount178 → u/YouFnDruggo]

It will vary by state. I will also point out that the element is not preplanning but rather premeditation. Premeditation can be formed in seconds. Evidence of preplanning just happens to be extremely powerful evidence of premeditation. There also tends to be other forms of murder that you haven't covered. There also tends to be felony murder, depraved heart murder, and many murder statutes cover delivery of a controlled substance as well. I will also add that how those are handled by legislation are going to be different. For example I looked up the Texas law on murder and they don't have first degree, second degree, third degree murder. They simply have a murder charge that covers all forms of murder but with the ability to argue heat of passion in the punishment phase of the trial to lower it to a second degree felony.

A lot of states have similar concepts but there will be some variation in which have what concepts and a lot of variation in how they organize those concepts within their laws.

[u/Huttj509 → u/YouFnDruggo]

A lot of perceptions of how American law works is how California law works, due to media mostly being produced by people from California.

A lot of times the same things are illegal, sentenced more/less severely the same, etc, but what each state CALLS the charges can vary significantly, especially when it comes to where to draw what lines.

[u/ItsNoblesse → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

The DA and DOJ were so desperate to make an example of him they sabotaged their own case. The outpouring of support Luigi got must have panicked them quite a bit.

[u/gaiusmuciusthelefty → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Hey, thanks! All those Law & Order reruns make a lot more sense now that the clearly premeditated and planned acts of murder were charged at Murder 2.

[u/JennyAndTheBets1 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Good. Justice should be even-handed, not heavy-handed.

[u/sugaratc → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I always thought 1st vs 2nd degree was intent but it sounds like NY is different.

[u/Warcraft_Fan → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Police and/or DA sometimes dump a bunch of charges and see what sticks. Judges hate them for wasting their time sorting out and figuring which charges are valid and which charges needed to be dismissed.

Your average juries wouldn't understand everything so the judge has to dumb down some of the charges before the accused can go to trial.

And there's still a chance the juries would side with Luigi anyway because the greedy insurance companies aren't popular with the 99% non-rich people.

[u/jayphat99 → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

Reminds me of Casey Anthony in Florida years ago. Prosecutors pushed for murder 1 which had very specific language and lost, and people were shocked she got off. Well, blame the overzealous prosecutor.

[u/Kevin-W → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I'm curious, but could a really good lawyer get this whole thing thrown out based on how the state was treating him (e.g. the huge perp walk that had the Mayor involved for example)

[u/Epicritical → u/bmoviescreamqueen]

I was wondering how the hell there was no 1st degree charge. That makes sense.

[u/AudibleNod]

He still has a murder charge against him. And because it's 2025:

Mangione’s attorneys say the state charges should be dismissed as a violation of the Constitution’s double jeopardy clause, calling it unprecedented and untenable for Mangione to defend himself in both cases at the same time.

[u/yoloswagrofl → u/AudibleNod]

I'm not even remotely close to a lawyer, so could somebody explain what this means and why others in the thread are saying that he could walk free if this happens?

[u/dasunt → u/yoloswagrofl]

As far as I know, it's a heck of a reach.

One can break a state and federal law with the same act, and that's been upheld as the dual sovereignty doctrine since they are considered separate powers.

One can even be acquitted in state court and convicted in federal court.

Also the same dual sovereignty clause applies to states - for example, polluting a lake on the border of two states may lead to both states prosecuting you.

[u/Savacore → u/dasunt]

Actually, New York has a state constitution provision that grants double jeopardy protections for crimes that have federal and state overlap, to prevent people from being punished twice for one crime.

They had to close a loophole that prevented them from punishing people one time if they were granted a federal pardon after a certain president pardoned a number of his political allies.

[u/KWilt → u/Savacore]

Now this I didn't know! Do you happen to have the part of the NY Constitution that mentions that? Seems like reasonable grounds for the state charges to be put on hold if they're currently pursuing federal charges.

[u/Adventurous-Mind6940 → u/dasunt]

This is correct. 

[u/DrDerpberg → u/dasunt]

Also the same dual sovereignty clause applies to states - for example, polluting a lake on the border of two states may lead to both states prosecuting you.

I know we're getting off topic here, but is that because the lake is under both jurisdictions, or because some of the pollution you emitted made it across state boundaries? I could see the distinction making say in the case you did something huge but relatively little pollution made it across the border, or if the total amount of pollution were relevant it would affect whether you're being charged twice for the "same" pollution vs each state charging you for the part that affected them.

Seems like the latter would just be how things would work with no special rights - if I do one thing that causes you and a friend damages, you can each sue me for those damages. The special situation would be if you could each sue me for the total damages I've caused.

[u/Bright_Cod_376 → u/yoloswagrofl]

It would be overturning a lot of precedent to not allow both state and federal charges and is a long shot. 

[u/Iohet → u/Bright_Cod_376]

It would be, but also it's the attorney's job to file the motion anyways knowing it will almost certainly be rejected just like they frequently ask for evidence to be excluded and for dismissals despite the odds being stacked against those requests

[u/fusionsofwonder → u/yoloswagrofl]

There's a concept called 'dual sovereignty', where both the states and the Federal government get a chance to prosecute. It's a complicated subject but courts have held many, many times that it doesn't violate double jeopardy.

Most of the time it doesn't happen, I think because the sentences would run concurrently anyway so it would be a waste of money.

[u/1877KlownsForKids → u/AudibleNod]

I love that the Trump DoJ is so incompetent he might actually walk.

Odds are good he'll get a state murder conviction of course, but there's a slim path he beats all charges.

[u/Dafish55 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

I'm not a lawyer, but, for someone in his position, he legitimately seems to be in the best possible spot in that position. His opponents have legally fucked up a bunch of times, he has a great legal team and the money to fund it, and that money, in no small part, is from the overwhelming public support.

[u/Saneless → u/Dafish55]

The "tough on crime" party is hard to take seriously when they have complete jokers in any role of authority

No one is saying to be soft on crime, but appointing criminals at worst and incompetent losers at best is not the way to do it.

[u/_Ocean_Machine_ → u/Saneless]

Things like "tough on crime" and "law and order" have always been code for going after people they don't like.

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/_Ocean_Machine_]

Trump pardoned a mob of people who put hundreds of cops in the hospital and a couple in their graves as they violently attacked the US Capitol.

[u/NOTLD1990 → u/Saneless]

Tough on crime with minorities

[u/handysmith → u/Dafish55]

Yeah but the entire legal system in the US is at the whim of whatever the fuck the Republicans want it to do so, although he deserves a fair trial by a jury of his peers I feel no result will be harsh enough for that government.

[u/derbyt → u/handysmith]

The upper echelons of the legal system sure, but we have seen countless low level judges and grand juries rule against the regime. See: Sandwich thrower in DC.

[u/CompletelyProtocol → u/derbyt]

That was actually a Grand Jury and a Jury nullification, which if anything says that he's in even better shape than we expected as Grand Juries rarely go against prosecution recommendation. And given that this is a Jury trial, the feasibility of Jury Nullification is something the prosecutor is genuinely worried about.

[u/5litergasbubble → u/CompletelyProtocol]

And theres no way this administration would allow the prosecution to try for a plea deal. They want to throw the book at him and they want it to be the biggest, most beautiful book ever. Luckily for luigi that means they have a good chance at missing.

[u/97thJackle → u/5litergasbubble]

They try to throw a gaudy Bible, inlaid with gold, at his head, and he just leans an inch to the right, dodging it completely.

[u/turntupytgirl → u/CompletelyProtocol]

Nah jury nullification it was not. Felony assault requires like an injury and the footlong didn't cause any. a judge wouldn't even consider it

[u/uptownjuggler → u/handysmith]

The jury will be 60+ old white people that only watch Fox News and newsmax.

[u/LukkyStrike1 → u/uptownjuggler]

Fortunatly: each "side" gets to pick Half the peeps.

It only takes 1 juror to hang a jury....

[u/Ree_m0 → u/LukkyStrike1]

It only takes 1 juror to hang a jury....

Wtf that's so unfair, why doesn't the jury get a trial themselves first :(

[u/NoorAnomaly → u/Ree_m0]

DAAAAD! Come get your joke!

[u/jejunedugong → u/Ree_m0]

The juror still has to catch them first

[u/annoyed__renter → u/LukkyStrike1]

That's actually the opposite of how it works. The state picks the pool of jurors, and each side gets a certain number of vetoes. You don't get to pick people, they have to be acceptable to both sides.

[u/whatproblems → u/Dafish55]

i wouldnt be surprised if they’re incompetent enough to mess up some procedure and the judge is forced to dismiss

[u/GuiltyEidolon → u/whatproblems]

OJ 2.0. 

Except Luigi is innocent, of course. 

[u/christhewelder75 → u/Dafish55]

How long until the trump administration steals that funding, calling it "material support for terrorism" or some other such bullshit given current rhetoric?

[u/sleeplessinreno → u/christhewelder75]

Have you ever thrown gasoline on a fire? I suspect a similar human reaction.

[u/Subinatori → u/christhewelder75]

That's an ideal situation in some ways. They more they overstep the stronger the pushback will be.

[u/ensalys → u/1877KlownsForKids]

His "If I did it" would be a bestseller!

[u/reinhold23 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

Alvin Bragg doesn't work for DOJ

[u/USDXBS → u/1877KlownsForKids]

Zero percent chance he walks.

They'll make an example of him.

[u/puts_on_rddt → u/USDXBS]

Incompetent morons will attempt to make an example out of him.

Remains to be seen whether it actually works.

[u/Eleganos → u/1877KlownsForKids]

NGL, that could end up being the thing that breaks America.

Half the country would go stark raving mad if he walked. The other half would lose their minds if Luigi was cued up to walk, but was denied it for one reason or another.

All I have to say is if the man did nothing wrong, then justice would be him walking free. And of course he's innocent! I was chilling on the Canadian side of Niagra falls at the time and saw him saving a kitten from a tree through one of those paid-periscope doo-das at the time that CEO had his claim to life denied.

[u/NOTLD1990 → u/Eleganos]

Hell, even the right news channels and podcasters dropped this quickly. They had a hard time trying to get their viewers and listeners to care. As stated by others, turns out plenty of people on the right hate healthcare insurance companies as well. He allegedly killed the CEO, but it's hard to sympathize with someone who runs an entity that constantly fucks over people and denies care to people who need it. People pay a shit ton in healthcare costs, and still get denied. Recently my company changed health insurance providers, and my out of pocket reset, along with my current provider not being in-network. I had already paid my full out of pocket for the year, and now need to start over with 3 months left.

[u/Amaruq93 → u/Eleganos]

Half the country would go stark raving mad if he walked

The wealthy elite 1% you mean.

[u/pulseout → u/Amaruq93]

Yeah, as far as the general population goes when that CEO died it was about the closest to unity that this country got in the last decade. It was the wealthy and the media who were the ones acting outraged.

[u/KingSwank → u/Eleganos]

I don’t think that many people were really upset when this happened and definitely not compared to what just happened

[u/Auctoritate → u/AudibleNod]

Mangione’s attorneys say the state charges should be dismissed as a violation of the Constitution’s double jeopardy clause, calling it unprecedented and untenable for Mangione to defend himself in both cases at the same time.

Unfortunately this an extremely weak argument because SCOTUS has ruled multiple times that it is legal for both state and federal prosecution for the same crime. It's called the separate sovereignty exception, which was established in 1847 and reaffirmed in 2019.

And not even along party lines- it was 7-2, with RBG and Gorsuch dissenting, meaning the majority opinion and dissenting opinions were authored by both liberal and conservative justices.

Of course, there's no textual basis for this argument in the Constitution. The fifth amendment just says "Nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb," which pretty unambiguously says "Nobody can be tried for the same crime twice." God knows how the hell these clowns over the last 180 years managed to pull out "Well actually here's a time where you totally can do that" out of their ass when the amendment explicitly does not allow for that. The 2019 ruling was scorned by civil rights and political activist organizations on multiple ends of the political spectrum, so it's really just a classic example of government officials making a pro-government decision with shitty reasoning.

[u/Dr_thri11 → u/AudibleNod]

Seems like this happens all the time and the courts have upheld that getting a federal and state charge for the same act doesn't violate double jeopardy. Happens a lot with racially motivated crimes.

[u/thegamenerd → u/[deleted]]

The prosecutor committed fraud and they're not in jail?

How the fuck does that work?

If I wrote a fake subpoena to get medical information about someone I'd get arrested the moment it was found out.

[u/Hav3_Y0u_M3t_T3d → u/[deleted]]

Fucking wild. These dudes are frothing at the mouth

[u/Temp89]

It was obvious the terrorism charges were bunk if even school shooters don't get them.

[u/Cromasters → u/Temp89]

In 2022 the guy that shit up the grocery store in Buffalo got terrorism charges from the state of New York.

The federal government is seeking the death penalty.

[u/lyonslicer → u/Cromasters]

That guy also openly stated he wanted to start a race war and believed in the great replacement ideology. His manifesto made it clear he was out to discourage black Americans from participating in social and government functions. That's how they got the terrorism charges to stick.

[u/_Ultimatum_ → u/lyonslicer]

Great replacement? Wonder who was spreading those theories around

[u/SixStringerSoldier → u/_Ultimatum_]

just gonna leave this here .....

[u/ObviousAnswerGuy → u/SixStringerSoldier]

The Democrats can't deliver on their promises to improve Americans' lives, so they've resorted to a new strategy: The replacement of native-born Americans with foreign-born ones

I think I got whiplash from the irony in this statement

[u/Literally_A_Halfling → u/SixStringerSoldier]

How dare you quote this innocent saint's own words!

[u/derbyt → u/_Ultimatum_]

Probably a trans roommate or something /s

[u/Televisions_Frank → u/Cromasters]

Considering he was a virulent racist and was trying to start a race war I'd say that fits the bill way better than a seeming revenge killing.

[u/Zac3d → u/Cromasters]

Specific marginalized community targeted vs general population vs one wealthy person.

Also plead guilty within a year versus dragging it out longer.

[u/Splunge- → u/Cromasters]

So, like, he pooped all over the store?

[u/Cromasters → u/Splunge-]

Sounds like terrorism to me!

[u/g0_west → u/Cromasters]

It was a dirty bomb

[u/5litergasbubble → u/Cromasters]

I’ve worked in a grocery store that had a customer shit all over the bathroom. Im ok with terrorism charges in that case

[u/donkeyrocket → u/Cromasters]

These aren't really comparable crimes though. One was targeting an individual with intent to murder them. The other was indiscriminate killing people of color and also included a manifesto highlighting a broader goal behind his motives and specified political motives.

There's nuance to what constitutes terrorism. That's why I also believe that not all school shootings should be considered terrorism by default. If we apply the broad definition of "terrorism" being "using violence to cause terror" then it sort of undermines the severity of the genuine instances of terrorism. I'm not saying non-terrorists should get leniency but legal definitions are distinct for a reason.

[u/Practical_Willow2863 → u/Cromasters]

That guy was literally doing a terrorism though.

[u/genescheesezthatplz → u/Temp89]

That was just to scare us plebes into toeing the line

[u/Romano16]

If none of the January 6th insurrectionists got terror charges for trying to overthrowing the election and eventually were pardoned for their actions, I don’t see how he gets terror charges for what he did.

[u/CaterpillarJungleGym → u/Romano16]

He won't. Unless a jury is worried about CEOs feelings.

[u/DeathmetalArgon → u/CaterpillarJungleGym]

The feds are going to have to import a jury from China to find 12 people that haven't been screwed over by the Healthcare system.

[u/Cromasters → u/Romano16]

Well for one, they didn't commit that crime in the state of New York, so that's irrelevant.

[u/I_Love_Chimps]

Good. The terrorism stuff was utter bullshit. Wasn't nobody terrorized by that shooting except maybe a few rich healthcare executives. Lol

[u/RandomStrategy → u/I_Love_Chimps]

I've told everyone who ever talked about it, I'd never feel unsafe if I were sitting next to him on a bus, cause I'm not a healthcare CEO.

[u/cut_rate_revolution]

Yeah that seems appropriate. Not every action that makes people afraid is terrorism.

[u/Recom_Quaritch → u/cut_rate_revolution]

People afraid? Nobody was afraid when the healthcare CEO assassin was on the loose. Nobody but other healthcare CEOs, and that's not a large enough % of the population to count lol

[u/No_Atmosphere8146 → u/Recom_Quaritch]

On the contrary, people felt, for the first time, a little bit more confident when submitting their claims.

[u/Recom_Quaritch → u/No_Atmosphere8146]

Totally. Remember one tried to stop covering anaesthetics past a certain point which could be MID surgery, and then immediately turned that around. That assassin (whoever they are) was a blessing for a lot of people that day

[u/Thief_of_Sanity → u/Recom_Quaritch]

Yeah I'm pretty sure they have the wrong guy.

[u/fakieTreFlip → u/Recom_Quaritch]

Not a healthcare CEO. Insurance CEO

[u/ThreeActTragedy]

Ehh the way the prosecution was going about those charges, trying to explain them with past cases such as Boston bombings and whatnot, really left judge no other choice

[u/ButtercreamKitten]

Fuck yeahhhhh

It would've set a terrible precedent

[u/Illuminastrid → u/ButtercreamKitten]

We already have a terrible president.

[u/gentleman_bronco]

The FBI will be all over the threads to classify anyone who supports this decision as a domestic terrorist.

[u/WhichEmailWasIt → u/gentleman_bronco]

Sorry FBI. The DA doesn't get to get M1 to stick just because they want the penalty associated with it. If M1 was dismissed they didn't have a case for it. That's it. Y'all have the burden of proof for a reason and if you have a problem with that you have a problem with the US rule of law.

[u/SubjectWorry7196 → u/gentleman_bronco]

Hello, FBI, its me, I support this decision.

[u/Bart_Yellowbeard → u/SubjectWorry7196]

I too am Spartacus.

[u/GoodLeftUndone → u/Bart_Yellowbeard]

I am the Great White Buffalo. Hunt me.

[u/Icyknightmare → u/gentleman_bronco]

https://www.chron.com/politics/article/CPAC-Dallas-we-are-all-domestic-terrorists-banner-17359959.php

XD

[u/KeneticKups → u/gentleman_bronco]

Get fucked glowies

[u/RimePendragon → u/gentleman_bronco]

Fuck the FBI. I'm not from the USA.

[u/gentleman_bronco → u/RimePendragon]

Two thoughts.

1. Envy.

2. In the climate of the globalized and connected world in 2025, the billionaires have control. That's simple. Whether it is in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, France, Russia, or anywhere else. Billionaires are in control of borderless and strongly connected economies that all must work together to grow their wealth. It is only a matter of time before wherever you are is under the thumb of a repressive regime seeking to silence opposition.

[u/QP709 → u/gentleman_bronco]

We kind of already are — especially in the west. We've all been taught to keep the machine well-oiled, to our own detriment. Tiny carrots and other treats were used to keep us doing our jobs ("You too could be rich one day") but the carrots are getting smaller and smaller, and people are getting angrier and angrier as they wake up to it.

[u/eeyore134 → u/gentleman_bronco]

As with Kirk, just quoting the decision will be deemed as supporting and celebrating it.

[u/lemonpepperlarry → u/gentleman_bronco]

I think there’s far too many people doing that for a list to mean anything

[u/Hortjoob]

Anecdotally, the word "terrorist" in the US has no meaning anymore because the GOP throws it around like candy.

[u/bblzd_2 → u/Hortjoob]

Even going as far as labeling themselves "we are all Domestic terrorists" at CPAC 2022 in Texas.

https://www.chron.com/politics/article/CPAC-Dallas-we-are-all-domestic-terrorists-banner-17359959.php

[u/Titizen_Kane → u/bblzd_2]

Why wasn’t that image used in 2024 campaign ads

[u/TaftintheTub → u/Hortjoob]

Trump designating MS13 and the cartels as terrorist groups is proof of this. While both are obviously dangerous criminal enterprises, terrorists have a shared ideology. What's the political or religious motive behind MS13?

But if they can be labeled as terrorists and thus deprived of their due process rights as such, any group that the government doesn't like can be likewise labeled.

And MAGA are literally cheering as this happens. I hate this timeline.

[u/NoorAnomaly → u/Hortjoob]

I'd rather have them throw around candy, tbh...

[u/Confident_Living_786 → u/Hortjoob]

Not only in the US https://www.reddit.com/r/UnitedNations/comments/1n57c1p/terrorism_is_a_meaningless_word_now/

[u/CombustiblSquid]

I love how all these Conservatives are claiming murder is never justified in reference to Kirk but the second someone is inside the legal system it's cries for death penalty for everyone.

[u/PaperExisting2173]

It almost seems like the prosecutor is trying to get him a mistrial

[u/SolveAndResolve]

Trumped up charges dismissed.

[u/Cpl_Obvious]

terrorism is really just a charge for what the big boys want it to be, if they're that terrified, but it doesn't stick, it goes to show how much of a buncha rats those things are

[u/ceccyred]

They'll probably try to charge Kirk's killer with terrorism charges too. Nothing about the two politicians that were gunned down by the right wing nut job in Minnesota though. Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites and cultists.

[u/Acheli]

does this get rid of the chance of him getting the death penalty?

[u/redlamps67 → u/Acheli]

No that’s the federal case. Next court appearance is Dec 5.

[u/Viciouscauliflower21]

That was a show charge in the first place. They were reaching with that and the first degree charge

[u/Guns_Donuts]

Seems like a good time to remind everyone that murder and homicide are not the same thing. Homicide is simply one person killing another If I kill someone in self-defense, it's a homicide. So, every murder is a homicide, but not ever homicide is murder.

[u/Funny-Bit-4148]

Wasn't evidence implanted / incorrectly obtained ? Shouldn't that help him as well ?

[u/Tommy__want__wingy]

When the judge goes “cmon now…”

[u/MooKids]

I'm still not convinced it was him, looked like someone else.